WI Dutch was the main language of the United States of America?

This is a thing my best friend told me yesterday.

His other friend went to the Museum of Scientific History in London, and he told him that the guides told him a story...

Back in the day, the British and the Dutch holders of New Amsterdam were deciding which language there would be spoken in the city. Dutch or English.

Eventually, they decided it via coin toss, and the English side won. Now I was wondering... What would the implications for the world be if Dutch side won? Would Dutch have the place in the world, English currently holds? Or would Dutch be overrun by English anyhow, or would they all speak Spanish in the world by then?
 
Last edited:
This is a thing my best friend told me yesterday.

His other friend went to the Museum of Scientific History in London, and he told him that the guides told him a story...

Back in the day, the British and the Dutch holders of New Amsterdam were deciding which language there would be spoken in the city. Dutch or English.

Eventually, they decided it via head and tails, and the English side won. Now I was wondering... What would the implications for the world be if Dutch side won? Would Dutch have the place in the world, English currently holds? Or would Dutch be overrun by English anyhow, or would they all speak Spanish in the world by then?

We would probably still be speaking English if the Dutch had won the coin toss. Even if everyone in New York/New Amsterdam spoke Dutch, the rest of the British colonies in North America spoke English. New York had nowhere near the influence in the colonies to get everyone to start learning Dutch. It's unlikely that Dutch would even remain the primary language of new York for long, because the primary immigrants would have likely been English-speaking, and they would have to engage in economic dealings with the rest of the English-speaking colonies. It would be impractical for people in New York to speak Dutch as a primary language. The most I can see coming out of this is a more prominent Dutch community in New York, and perhaps a strong association of "dutch-ness" with the city.
 
We would probably still be speaking English if the Dutch had won the coin toss. Even if everyone in New York/New Amsterdam spoke Dutch, the rest of the British colonies in North America spoke English. New York had nowhere near the influence in the colonies to get everyone to start learning Dutch. It's unlikely that Dutch would even remain the primary language of new York for long, because the primary immigrants would have likely been English-speaking, and they would have to engage in economic dealings with the rest of the English-speaking colonies. It would be impractical for people in New York to speak Dutch as a primary language. The most I can see coming out of this is a more prominent Dutch community in New York, and perhaps a strong association of "dutch-ness" with the city.

Martin Van Buren grew up speaking Dutch, and is, to date, the only American president to have learned English as a secondary language. That's just to give a little perspective on the status of Dutch in New York in OTL.

I too doubt that Dutch's ATL official status in NYC would precipitate a linguistic switch in the rest of the colonies/states, but there would certainly be a different cultural dynamic when one of the "core" states has at least a large minority of non-anglophones that are represented in the government. You might see a Quebec like situation down the line, especially if the Great Lakes region is open to American Dutch settlement.
 
Martin Van Buren grew up speaking Dutch, and is, to date, the only American president to have learned English as a secondary language. That's just to give a little perspective on the status of Dutch in New York in OTL.

I too doubt that Dutch's ATL official status in NYC would precipitate a linguistic switch in the rest of the colonies/states, but there would certainly be a different cultural dynamic when one of the "core" states has at least a large minority of non-anglophones that are represented in the government. You might see a Quebec like situation down the line, especially if the Great Lakes region is open to American Dutch settlement.

Hm...I wasn't aware that Dutch was that influential in OTL New York. Thanks for the clarification.
 
Hm...I wasn't aware that Dutch was that influential in OTL New York. Thanks for the clarification.
Not that it's a very large thing, if you will, but those of us who live on/near the Hudson tend to cling to our Dutch heritage a bit more than the rest, mostly out of something that makes us unique from the rest of the northeast. Many of our cities' flags (including Albany and New York City) still include the original blue/white/orange tricolor. We're also really, really into anything that has to do with Henry Hudson. :D
 
In OTL, New Amsterdam Dutch actually survived in parts of New York and New Jersey until about 1900
 
This is a thing my best friend told me yesterday.

His other friend went to the Museum of Scientific History in London, and he told him that the guides told him a story...

Back in the day, the British and the Dutch holders of New Amsterdam were deciding which language there would be spoken in the city. Dutch or English.

Eventually, they decided it via head and tails, and the English side won. Now I was wondering... What would the implications for the world be if Dutch side won? Would Dutch have the place in the world, English currently holds? Or would Dutch be overrun by English anyhow, or would they all speak Spanish in the world by then?

It would be over-run by English. See also the decline of Dutch in Western Michigan during the past Century (Holland/Zeeland & Grand Rapids).
 
It would be over-run by English. See also the decline of Dutch in Western Michigan during the past Century (Holland/Zeeland & Grand Rapids).

The decline of Germanic minority languages has just as much to do with WWI and II making being a primary German Speaker much less socially acceptable, before that German, Dutch, and the Scandinavian languages made up a very sizable minority in the US.
 

Flubber

Banned
The decline of Germanic minority languages has just as much to do with WWI and II making being a primary German Speaker much less socially acceptable, before that German, Dutch, and the Scandinavian languages made up a very sizable minority in the US.


Not exactly. While the wars sped the process up, there was considerable backlash against so-called hyphenated Americans as early as the 1880s.

Any era of increased immigration, real or perceived, to the US sees a push back against those immigrants. Hence the Know Nothings, the Asian exclusion acts, the strict quotas of the 1920s, Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson agreeing on dangers posed by hyphenated Americans, and the current furor over the millions of illegals now.
 
Not exactly. While the wars sped the process up, there was considerable backlash against so-called hyphenated Americans as early as the 1880s.

Any era of increased immigration, real or perceived, to the US sees a push back against those immigrants. Hence the Know Nothings, the Asian exclusion acts, the strict quotas of the 1920s, Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson agreeing on dangers posed by hyphenated Americans, and the current furor over the millions of illegals now.

Yes but the disapearance of minority languages has far more to do with the wars making being German a very bad thing, things like a backlash against hyphenated amaricans in general is not enough to make that kind of critical mass minority group capable of maintaining their own language just get swallowed up. And the backlash against immigrants usually has far more to do with the perception immigrant workers deflate wages.
 

Flubber

Banned
Yes but the disapearance of minority languages has far more to do with the wars making being German a very bad thing...


Then why did other minority languages, not just German and Dutch, also disappear in the same time frame?

There was a push to force assimilation across the political spectrum well before the First World War and that assimilation involved many more ethnic groups than Germans.
 

Tohno

Banned
Then why did other minority languages, not just German and Dutch, also disappear in the same time frame?

There was a push to force assimilation across the political spectrum well before the First World War and that assimilation involved many more ethnic groups than Germans.

Italian survived in major cities of the US an only really started to die out with suburbanization. Ditto for Czech and Polish in Chicago. Heck, there STILL are Polish neighborhoods full of people speaking/understanding Polish
 
Italian survived in major cities of the US an only really started to die out with suburbanization. Ditto for Czech and Polish in Chicago. Heck, there STILL are Polish neighborhoods full of people speaking/understanding Polish

Ditto in Texas, where there are still (albeit very small) populations of German and Czech-speakers. And of course the Amish and Mennonite communities still speak their dialects, at least in Pennsylvania.
 
Yes but the disapearance of minority languages has far more to do with the wars making being German a very bad thing, things like a backlash against hyphenated amaricans in general is not enough to make that kind of critical mass minority group capable of maintaining their own language just get swallowed up. And the backlash against immigrants usually has far more to do with the perception immigrant workers deflate wages.

Also sheer practicality, if the vast majority of the population speaks English and you speak French it makes more sense for you to learn English than expect everyone else around you to speak French, particularly with the relatively mobile population of the US. If you live in New Orleans and speak French but plan to eventually move either out west or to New York or Chicago it makes sense for you to learn English rather than counting on people there speaking French.
 
Top