WI:Dutch Normandy, Wallonia and Franders

Is it possible for Dutch to gain Normandy and all of Flanders including French Flanders, the POD is during the Dutch rebellion.
 
Is it possible for Dutch to gain Normandy and all of Flanders including French Flanders, the POD is during the Dutch rebellion.

Short Answer: No.

Long Answer: What's the context here? Why would they attempt to gain it against a country that is supporting them against the Spanish?
 
Could the Netherlands got more theritory during the Dutch revolt. Yes, it could. Could the Netherlands got all of the southern Netherlands? No. I have my doubts about that. Spain was still a formidable enemy and most of the Walloon provinces never supported the Dutch revolt. Still I consider it possible, at least in theory, for the Netherlands to try to gain all of the former Spanish Netherlands. You do need a very different Netherlands after the Dutch revolt, as OTL the Dutch didn't even realy care about Flanders.

Sure you could have a United Netherlands after the Napoleonic Wars. Actualy that did happen and with a couple of changes you could keep them together. I would even say that with some minor changes at the end of the Napoleonic wars (a more succesful 100 days maybe?) it is possible that the Netherlands gains French Flanders (and possibly French Hainaut, if you care about that).

The hard part is Normandy. I simply don't see the Netherlands in any form to care about Normandy. It is...well...too French. I can, in theory, see a Netherlands gain Artois (which was part of the Spanish Netherlands after all), maybe Calais (although that is already pushing it), but Normandy? Why?

Ok, how about this rather unlikely scenario. France balkanizes for some reason. The Netherlands and Normany start to coöperate* and finaly merge into one country. That is the best I can do.


*possibly against other Frecnh states who might be fascist, or communist or whatever or maybe the Netherlands and Normandy are communist.
 
simply because the POD is during the 80 year war does not mean they aquire the territories in that period. there been enough wars with france after that.

the gaining of french and belgian flanders would be easily done, just like wallonia. the difficult part is normandy.

a more succesful start of the rebellion (that hold all 17 provinces) would be a good start. unfortunately that causes quite a bunch of butterlflies, so after that get rather unpredictable.

the burgundian netherlands at the start of the rebellion.
613px-Locator_Burgundian_Circle.svg.png
 
Could the Netherlands got more theritory during the Dutch revolt. Yes, it could. Could the Netherlands got all of the southern Netherlands? No. I have my doubts about that. Spain was still a formidable enemy and most of the Walloon provinces never supported the Dutch revolt. Still I consider it possible, at least in theory, for the Netherlands to try to gain all of the former Spanish Netherlands. You do need a very different Netherlands after the Dutch revolt, as OTL the Dutch didn't even realy care about Flanders.

In the beginning ALL 17 provinces agreed on getting the Spanish troops out, not the Spanish King. They said they were fighting against the king's bad advisors. Only after that several Southern Provinces suddenly changed sides and joined the Duke of Alva and his forces (Unie van Atrecht). So then Northerners signed the Unie van Utrecht, which purpose was to still to defeat the Spanish. Some time later they disposed the Spanish king and agin some time later they became a Republic since nobody wanted to be king.

If you have a POD with the southerns not betraying a United Netherlands would very well be possible. And remember in this age Flanders was the area with the most Calvinist people, only later (157/80's) they became a majority in the north. Religion was, and still is very fragmented and spread in the Netherlands.
 
If you have a POD with the southerns not betraying a United Netherlands would very well be possible.

That might work. Well it at least means that the revolt is probably more succesful in the early stages. I don't think it would the knockout blow for the Spanish though, but it might be significant enough that it will be possible to kick out the Spanish troops during the war.
And remember in this age Flanders was the area with the most Calvinist people, only later (157/80's) they became a majority in the north. Religion was, and still is very fragmented and spread in the Netherlands.
This is of course true. If the Dutch manage to keep Flanders and Brabant during the early stages of the revolt, they will be as protestant as the northern provinces.
 
That might work. Well it at least means that the revolt is probably more succesful in the early stages. I don't think it would the knockout blow for the Spanish though, but it might be significant enough that it will be possible to kick out the Spanish troops during the war.

This is of course true. If the Dutch manage to keep Flanders and Brabant during the early stages of the revolt, they will be as protestant as the northern provinces.

It is. Better support from the French Hugenots could work. How about the calvinist Duke of Anjou accepting the Dutch throne? Instead of denying it OTL. He could have money and troops from Hugenot nobles all across France to liberate the Netherlands. If you combine it with the relative tolerance and decentralisation of a united Netherlands they could survive, with each province having its own laws and rules, language, and also religion (The Dutch were very keen on this, and if the king tries the centralise the state i think they would just kick him out, just like the Spanish, and replace him with one who would respect the states' rights). Then with a French king it would make no sense for the Walloons to suddenly quit the union.
 
It is. Better support from the French Hugenots could work. How about the calvinist Duke of Anjou accepting the Dutch throne? Instead of denying it OTL. He could have money and troops from Hugenot nobles all across France to liberate the Netherlands. If you combine it with the relative tolerance and decentralisation of a united Netherlands they could survive, with each province having its own laws and rules, language, and also religion (The Dutch were very keen on this, and if the king tries the centralise the state i think they would just kick him out, just like the Spanish, and replace him with one who would respect the states' rights). Then with a French king it would make no sense for the Walloons to suddenly quit the union.
I thought most Hugenots lived in the south of France instead of normandy? Still it doesn't seem like a good way for Normandy to become part of the Netherlands. It seems more like a way for the Netherlands to get absorbed into France.
 
I thought most Hugenots lived in the south of France instead of normandy? Still it doesn't seem like a good way for Normandy to become part of the Netherlands. It seems more like a way for the Netherlands to get absorbed into France.
I think Eu, a part of Normandy, Boulogne, Calais and Artois could be a part of the Netherlands the question is how..
 
I think Eu, a part of Normandy, Boulogne, Calais and Artois could be a part of the Netherlands the question is how..
Well, Artois was part of the Netherlands, but never part of the revolt.

I don't think the Dutch revolt can be so succesful all of the Netherlands ends up part of it. I can certainly see it being more succesful than OTL and capture more of Flanders or Brabant, but Artois? Doubtful. And to continue expanding south; into catholic and pro spanish territory after the war? Possible, but unlikely. Expanding into France, up to Normany? Even more unlikely. You need a France that totaly collapsed for that to happen. I don't consider it impossible, but for it to happen you need to various unlikely steps to happen.

I think you need an earlier POD , when Burgundy still controlled Picardy. That would make it a lot more likely.

Why do you want a Normany-Dutch union anyway?
 
Well, Artois was part of the Netherlands, but never part of the revolt.

I don't think the Dutch revolt can be so succesful all of the Netherlands ends up part of it. I can certainly see it being more succesful than OTL and capture more of Flanders or Brabant, but Artois? Doubtful. And to continue expanding south; into catholic and pro spanish territory after the war? Possible, but unlikely. Expanding into France, up to Normany? Even more unlikely. You need a France that totaly collapsed for that to happen. I don't consider it impossible, but for it to happen you need to various unlikely steps to happen.

I think you need an earlier POD , when Burgundy still controlled Picardy. That would make it a lot more likely.

Why do you want a Normany-Dutch union anyway?
Perhaps if Margaret of Austria married Charles VIII that is possible....
 
Ok I find a Dutch controlled Flanders and Wallonia ascetically and logical;y pleasing, Normandy not so much. How would they get Normandy when the French were willing to fight to take it back? Other than that I could at least a a Dutch controlled Flanders and Wallonia with the right POD
 
I thought most Hugenots lived in the south of France instead of normandy? Still it doesn't seem like a good way for Normandy to become part of the Netherlands. It seems more like a way for the Netherlands to get absorbed into France.

There were Huguenot communities in Normandy. Here's a map of their strongholds:

HuguenotMap%20(1).jpg


Still, it'd be very difficult for the Dutch to capture Normandy. It's too far away, and too culturally different to want to support union with the Netherlands.
 
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