WI: Dutch Brazil

I think that during the Anglo-Dutch wars (which probably won't be butterflied away) the Dutch do better in America, or at least south america as the have a good base of operations near. It could mean that England loses a couple of islands next to Guyana. Although it could mean the Dutch are more willing to trade Guyana and those islands back to Britain for New Netherlands as they already have a good sugar area.

A successful Dutch Brazil would probably mean a Dutch Angola. Would it lead to a lucky Kingdom of Congo?
Also, this would have effects in Portugal. Could it mean the Portuguese would fail in their Independence War?
 
A successful Dutch Brazil would probably mean a Dutch Angola. Would it lead to a lucky Kingdom of Congo?
Also, this would have effects in Portugal. Could it mean the Portuguese would fail in their Independence War?

Dutch Angola? That might prevent the cape colony.
 
Who gets the Cape then? The British? Were the French already acting in that area so early?
Why would the Dutch not settle there? Even with Angola, the Cape would be an attractive spot for a waypoint between the Dutch West Indies (including Brazil ITTL) and the East Indies. I can see the place attracting them AIOTL.
 
I think that during the Anglo-Dutch wars (which probably won't be butterflied away) the Dutch do better in America, or at least south america as the have a good base of operations near. It could mean that England loses a couple of islands next to Guyana. Although it could mean the Dutch are more willing to trade Guyana and those islands back to Britain for New Netherlands as they already have a good sugar area.

I've always wondered what American history would look like if New Netherlands survived. I've noticed a lot of TLs that use it have it as a little spot on the map right around New York City surrounded by the US, but I think it more likely that it would expand all over OTL New York state at least, and separate New England from Virginia and the Carolinas. Assuming both survive (and New Netherlands would be a good base to launch an attack on New England especially) its hard to see the United States forming.

On that note, do you think that, with a more substantial Dutch presence in the Americas, there might be a Franco-Dutch alliance to limit English (and Portugese) presence in the New World? Perhaps their could be a revival of the France Antactique project (a failed 16th French colony in what became Rio de Janaro), or a joint attack on New England (Dutch from New Netherlands, French from Canada)

I don't think the Dutch need to chose between Brasil or Indonesia. Brasil (and all of the Dutch possessions in the America's and the slavery outposts in Ghana) were controlled by the WIC, while Indonesia (and all Dutch possessions in Asia and south Africa) were controlled by the VOC. Two different companies doing their own thing.
Also no, we are most certainly talking about all of Brasil. The Dutch would be limited to the Recife area, while the rest of Brasil would remain Portuguese (or end up partly French or Spanish).

Yes, we're mostly talking about northeastern Brazil here, not the whole thing (at least at first).

Dutch Angola would also be interesting-just a few more conquests and we're close to the Dutch stripping the Portuguese of their entire colonial empire like in Kiat's TL.
 
I've always wondered what American history would look like if New Netherlands survived. I've noticed a lot of TLs that use it have it as a little spot on the map right around New York City surrounded by the US, but I think it more likely that it would expand all over OTL New York state at least, and separate New England from Virginia and the Carolinas. Assuming both survive (and New Netherlands would be a good base to launch an attack on New England especially) its hard to see the United States forming.
If the Netherlands keeps the New Netherlands after the Anglo-Dutch wars, it will probably keep all if it, including New Jersey, upstate New York and I belive even Delaware (the old New Sweden).

On that note, do you think that, with a more substantial Dutch presence in the Americas, there might be a Franco-Dutch alliance to limit English (and Portugese) presence in the New World? Perhaps their could be a revival of the France Antactique project (a failed 16th French colony in what became Rio de Janaro), or a joint attack on New England (Dutch from New Netherlands, French from Canada)

I doubt it. A Franco-Dutch alliance is possible, at least during the Eighty year war (the Dutch revolt). It would be a good way for France to limit Habsburg influence around it. But the moment France is looking for their Rhineborder, the Netherlands and France become enemies (and likely the Dutch and English allies. It really depends on the POD and the butterflies this timeline creates. Also I suspect that an Anglo-Dutch alliance is needed for a surviving New Netherlands.
 
If the Netherlands keeps the New Netherlands after the Anglo-Dutch wars, it will probably keep all if it, including New Jersey, upstate New York and I belive even Delaware (the old New Sweden).

My point exactly.

I doubt it. A Franco-Dutch alliance is possible, at least during the Eighty year war (the Dutch revolt). It would be a good way for France to limit Habsburg influence around it. But the moment France is looking for their Rhineborder, the Netherlands and France become enemies (and likely the Dutch and English allies. It really depends on the POD and the butterflies this timeline creates. Also I suspect that an Anglo-Dutch alliance is needed for a surviving New Netherlands.

Well, in this TL a Franco-Dutch alliance makes a LOT of sense for France and the Netherlands in the New World. Both are basically interested in increasing their share of colonial pie at the expense of Spain, Portugal, and (eventually) Britain. And actually conquering the the Dutch Republic post 80 years war would be very difficult for France, as I'm sure they could figure out (Spain, the most powerful country in Europe at the time, couldn't do it...). I'm sure that the cost-benefit analysis (increased colonial position, plus an anti-British, anti-Hapsburg ally, versus committing to a war that would be very long, costly and draining assuming it even worked) would bring the French around eventually.
 
Just to add some more thought to the discussion, here is the thread made sometime ago about the possible Dutch attack against Buenos Aires:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=107076

Interesting thread. If Maurice's attack works, the Dutch are going to have four colonies (North Brazil, New Netherlands, South Africa, and Argentina), and, I would guess, a limited supply of settlers to work with, seen as how the Netherlands isn't exactly the most populated place in Europe...though 20,000-30,000 for each colony plus high (but not ASB) natural population growth might be enough.

Anyway, to elaborate on my Franco-Dutch alliance idea...it would basically be against the British, Portuguese, and Spanish. The Dutch have (through whatever POD you choose-I like the idea, mentioned earlier on this thread, of a failed Dutch colonization of say, Cuba, which teaches them lessons useful in controlling Brazil), a secure colony in northern Brazil. They also have one of the best navies in the world, which would be very helpful to the French.
In Brazil, the Dutch would expand in the north and the French would attack the Portuguese in the south at some point, and (assuming the Franco-Dutch win) Brazil would be divided up between them. In North America, the French have Quebec+Maritimes and the Dutch have New Netherlands-New England is almost encircled. The French and Dutch could launch a joint attack, which if successful would see New England divided between the two (most of it likely Dutch...hardline Calvinists fit into Dutch society much better than French). The French could attack the OTL American south from Saint-Domingue with Dutch naval support and maybe ground troops. I would imagine a lot of it becomes French (to compensate the Dutch getting New Netherlands...though the Dutch maybe get Virginia)

So anyway, by 1750 or so, the English have been kicked out of the Americas (except the Caribbean), the Franco-Dutch have made huge gains (and are probably looking rather distrustfully at each other...doubt the alliance will last). Or, one could do a less extreme version of this senario where the Franco-Dutch make some gains, but not as much as above (which is intended to show the maximum possible success they could have)
 
A Zuckerland (how the Dutch called Brazil, or their Brazilian possessions) AH! Very interesting, I'll be keeping an eye out for this :)
 
Anyway, to elaborate on my Franco-Dutch alliance idea...it would basically be against the British, Portuguese, and Spanish. The Dutch have (through whatever POD you choose-I like the idea, mentioned earlier on this thread, of a failed Dutch colonization of say, Cuba, which teaches them lessons useful in controlling Brazil), a secure colony in northern Brazil. They also have one of the best navies in the world, which would be very helpful to the French.
In Brazil, the Dutch would expand in the north and the French would attack the Portuguese in the south at some point, and (assuming the Franco-Dutch win) Brazil would be divided up between them. In North America, the French have Quebec+Maritimes and the Dutch have New Netherlands-New England is almost encircled. The French and Dutch could launch a joint attack, which if successful would see New England divided between the two (most of it likely Dutch...hardline Calvinists fit into Dutch society much better than French). The French could attack the OTL American south from Saint-Domingue with Dutch naval support and maybe ground troops. I would imagine a lot of it becomes French (to compensate the Dutch getting New Netherlands...though the Dutch maybe get Virginia)

So anyway, by 1750 or so, the English have been kicked out of the Americas (except the Caribbean), the Franco-Dutch have made huge gains (and are probably looking rather distrustfully at each other...doubt the alliance will last). Or, one could do a less extreme version of this senario where the Franco-Dutch make some gains, but not as much as above (which is intended to show the maximum possible success they could have)

With a POD early during the Dutch revolt, we can add more buterflies in Europe, a theatre that is far more important for the French and Dutch (as that is were there homecountries are). Lets say the French and Dutch form an anti-Habsburg alliance, possibly the thirty year war is delayed and the French still want to limit the power of the Habsburgs. Or the 12 year truce doesn't last as long or whatever, the result is both the French and the Dutch attack the Spanish, The Netherlands get Flanders, Brabant and Limburg, while the French gains Luxemburg, Artois, Namur, Hainaut and the Franche-Compte. The alliance basicly holds for a while and France gets more interested in gaining land in Italy and Catalonia than in the Rhineborder. Meanwhile the Dutch and French cooperate i the colonies to kick the English out of New England (I think the southern colonies probably remain English) and the Portuguese out of Brasil. Seems like a possible thing to happen.
 
The Dutch did in fact create quite a lot of outposts everywhere in the world, not only in Brasil, but even more on the African West Coast and in today's India and Sri Lanka. These outposts were just what the name suggests: outposts for support of the long range trade over sea.

Secondly, some of these outposts also dealth with local trade and this was only done on more or less equal share with native traders and people, rather than subjegation and submission tactics, often used by other European nations. So these outposts could develop in commercial centra, such as today's Colombo on Sri Lanka, as well as Jakarta, the former Batavia main tradingpost of the Dutch in the East Indies.

Problem with Brasil was the lack of profit made by trade with the domestic population, which already was almost whiped out much earlier due to the first contacts with Europeans and their deseases, which whiped out most of the population long before the Dutch arrived. As such these potential colonies were hardly worth the efforts to develope and were likelwise abbandoned or traded against others, who thought they could be more proffitable.
 
Problem with Brasil was the lack of profit made by trade with the domestic population, which already was almost whiped out much earlier due to the first contacts with Europeans and their deseases, which whiped out most of the population long before the Dutch arrived. As such these potential colonies were hardly worth the efforts to develope and were likelwise abbandoned or traded against others, who thought they could be more proffitable.


The thing is a Brasil like colony was established a couple of years laterin Guyana/Surinam. So the idea here is that the Dutch learn earlier how to handle such a colony and make Brasil more stable and profitable.
 
The Dutch did in fact create quite a lot of outposts everywhere in the world, not only in Brasil, but even more on the African West Coast and in today's India and Sri Lanka. These outposts were just what the name suggests: outposts for support of the long range trade over sea.

Secondly, some of these outposts also dealth with local trade and this was only done on more or less equal share with native traders and people, rather than subjegation and submission tactics, often used by other European nations. So these outposts could develop in commercial centra, such as today's Colombo on Sri Lanka, as well as Jakarta, the former Batavia main tradingpost of the Dutch in the East Indies.

Problem with Brasil was the lack of profit made by trade with the domestic population, which already was almost whiped out much earlier due to the first contacts with Europeans and their deseases, which whiped out most of the population long before the Dutch arrived. As such these potential colonies were hardly worth the efforts to develope and were likelwise abbandoned or traded against others, who thought they could be more proffitable.

That isn't true of the native population of neither southeast/south nor the northern one (the region of São Luís), but the indians were never very populous in Brazil in the first place.
 
Top