WI Dunkerque and Strasbourg in RN service?

[Count of Crisco]

So lets just say for our purposes that the MN dispatches the two Dunkerque class battleships and a small task force, say elements of the Force de Raid, a light cruiser, two large destroyers, and three or four smaller destroyers, to help the British intercept the Bismarck when she sorties. The French then for whatever reason keep this force in UK waters for the next several months, maybe the MN is assembling a force for action in Norway.

With the fall of France these ships, their officers, and crews, refuse their orders to return to France and cease combat operations. Instead they vow to fight on and request that they be allowed to help the RN. Their proximity to the British Royal navy may or may not influence this decision to keep fighting.

This done the British now have a relatively capable and large force of fast French warships available to them. What does the RN do with this free French unit? Will it be kept together or broken up? Were will it see action? In the Atlantic helping to patrol convoys, likely not in the Med I wouldnt think, and do they later fight in the Pacific against Japan? How well would these ships do if they had continued fighting, and what are the odds they get stuck into major action?

 

[sparky42]

Would the taskforce have enough stocks in the UK to remain operational, or will they need to be kept in home waters until factories can be built up to support the 13" and 5.1" guns?

 

[Count of Crisco]

Would the taskforce have enough stocks in the UK to remain operational, or will they need to be kept in home waters until factories can be built up to support the 13" and 5.1" guns?

Let's assume they had been operating in UK waters long enough, April to June, that the French had sent spare shells and extra components. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[jsb]

Would the taskforce have enough stocks in the UK to remain operational, or will they need to be kept in home waters until factories can be built up to support the 13" and 5.1" guns?

The ships simply will not use sufficient 13" shells to matter, and anyway practice/HE shells are easy to make in small numbers and all BB shell were made in small numbers really anyway look at N&R with 16" shells and only 2 ships using them.......

 

[CV(N)-6]

Can the floating drydock in Alexandria take them?

 

[sparky42]

Let's assume they had been operating in UK waters long enough, April to June, that the French had sent spare shells and extra components. Seems reasonable to me.

Yeah but everything down to pipes that are different, I mean sustain the engine plants again might be issues, do you want to end up having them in the Med and risk them breaking down?

 

[sparky42]

The ships simply will not use sufficient 13" shells to matter, and anyway practice/HE shells are easy to make in small numbers and all BB shell were made in small numbers really anyway look at N&R with 16" shells and only 2 ships using them.......

Well yeah, but the RN had years to build up that stockpile, but now have to build up the industrial support even if it's just in small numbers, how long did it take the US to build the 900 shells for Richelieu?

 

[Count of Crisco]

Let's assume that France intended for the ships to spend considerable time in the UK for whatever reason and had sent extra shells and spare parts on hand. Maybe PoWs was handled more roughly by Bismarck than historically and is spending more time undergoing repairs. Leaving the RN down two BBs for a few months.

 

[sparky42]

Let's assume that France intended for the ships to spend considerable time in the UK for whatever reason and had sent extra shells and spare parts on hand. Maybe PoWs was handled more roughly by Bismarck than historically and is spending more time undergoing repairs. Leaving the RN down two BBs for a few months.

Ah... Bismarck was sunk in '41...

 

[Count of Crisco]

Ah... Bismarck was sunk in '41...

True...brain fart. Maybe the French were building up a force to send to Norway. Or perhaps a British BB was mauled by the twins at some point and the RN was feeling vulnerable.

 

[Not James Stockdale]

The whole PoD is messed up because Bismarck didn't commission until August 1940, after the fall of France, and didn't sail on a combat sortie until May 1941. The Force de Raid redeployed from Brest to Mers el Kebir because the French were worried about the Italians joining the war. The only way Dunkerque and Strasbourg join the Free French without altering Italy's entry into the war is a classic "Gensoul betrays the armistice -> no Mers el Kebir attack" scenario.

 

[I want to learn]

I think the ships would be seen as very valuable at a time the Royal Navy had few large fast ships. They were built for the Mediterranean which is where most the action is anyway, so they’d be sent there. Nothing immediately comes to mind for opportunities for the battleships to change the timeline however. What I think might be more significant is the circumstances that would lead to such large units joining the Free French. It’s a pretty big departure from OTL where French warships accepted internment or were violently attacked - I can’t think of any large ships that continued to fight. This quite possibly means the Free French movement picks up a lot more steam earlier, or that France has made the deliberate decision to fight on from colonies. Therefore the significance of the French battleships is not what they do on the high seas, but the bases in places like Syria and Algeria they come with.

 

[Count of Crisco]

The whole PoD is messed up because Bismarck didn't commission until August 1940, after the fall of France, and didn't sail on a combat sortie until May 1941. The Force de Raid redeployed from Brest to Mers el Kebir because the French were worried about the Italians joining the war. The only way Dunkerque and Strasbourg join the Free French without altering Italy's entry into the war is a classic "Gensoul betrays the armistice -> no Mers el Kebir attack" scenario.

Yeah the Bismarck thing was a brain fart, but as I said I am not really worried about the why but rather what the British would do with the ships.

 

[Mr Carrot]

Sticks them in Alexandria as a force in being.

They come out for shore bombardment for a slightly earlier Sicily invasion as one thinks this would cause significant butterflies in the NA theatre.

 

[1Big Rich]

Can the floating drydock in Alexandria take them?

I believe so. IIRC, there was a picture of HMS Illustrious in the floating dock at Alexandria, and as she was a little longer than D & S so length is not an issue. Also, Cunningham was limited to QEs (and Rs) because they were the heaviest his floating drydock in Alexandria Harbor could handle. Since they displace more than D & S, weight should not be an issue either. And Alexandria was noted for how quickly ships' bottoms fouled with marine growth, so the ships of the Mediterranean Fleet needed to be drydocked....

True...brain fart. Maybe the French were building up a force to send to Norway. Or perhaps a British BB was mauled by the twins at some point and the RN was feeling vulnerable.

They were sent to the Med in early April 1940. Just have them stay in the UK instead of going to France when the western front collapses, or have them sent to Gibraltar instead of Mers el Kabir. Somerville pulls a Cunningham, successfully negotiates with the French Admiral (Gensol or someone else). They are soon with to the RN as Richelieu was historically.

My thoughts,

 

[naraic]

An extra fast hunting group to find Admiral Scheer, Admiral Hipper and Scharnhorst and Genesenau when they come out and raid.

D&Q against S&G is a battle a lot of people are curious about if it could happen.

I reckon they will be kept based at home because its easier to do a bespoke order for an important part when you can bring people from industrial firms in to look at it when needed.

Probably sends an extra R or QE to the Mediterranean as they are less needed in home waters.

 

[jsb]

Sticks them in Alexandria as a force in being.

I think they are far more useful in North Atlantic where the speed matters?

 

[naraic]

I think they are far more useful in North Atlantic where the speed matters?

There's an argument that speed matters in the Mediterranean too but I wouldn't want to send just 2 fast capital ships.

They could punish any squadron sent out with 2 rebuilt battleships but would be in trouble against more than that.

You don't want D&S chasing down the entire Italian fleet on their own.

 

[Mr Carrot]

I think they are far more useful in North Atlantic where the speed matters?

Well we're arguing about deployability here and that's up in the air, I think their role in wrapping up events better in French NA and avoiding MEK all together (if they are sat with the British fleet) means we can't underestimate what their political power would be.

 

[Anarch King of Dipsodes]

Let's say Dunkerque and Strasbourg are deployed off Norway in spring 1940, get into a shootout with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, are heavily damaged (maybe also torpedoed by a U-boat), and stagger back to Britain for emergency repairs in the Clyde. They're still in drydock when France collapses.

After which, they eventually go into Free French service (not RN). Though where Free France gets enough crew for them is a problem. Even if the active crews from the Norway campaign are still in Scotland, most will choose repatriation (as did the great majority of French personnel).

OTL, after France's surrender, Britain seized control of three French battleships in British-controlled harbors: Paris and Courbet, at Plymouth, and Lorraine, at Alexandria. These were older ships (1911-1916). Paris and Courbet were used only as barracks, target ship, and breakwater. Lorraine was interned until December 1942, when French forces all joined the Allies after TORCH. She was then refitted in Oran, and saw action in 1944-1945.

That suggests Free France would have real trouble operating Dunkerque and Strasbourg. The RN didn't bother trying to get the old BBs into service. D & S however are fast and new, and might be seen as worthwhile. With French bases neutralized, the British may complete the repairs by refitting them with British gear and man them with British crews.

But they too have manpower constraints. Maybe with maximum Free French commitment,, supplemented by British crew, they get one of them into service.

One independent knock-on: if D & S are not exposed to Axis takeover, Britain may not do the Mers-el-Kébir operation. That would probably lead to more French personnel declaring for Free France.