WI: Dorian Attica

What if the Doric Invasion had moved further, even into Attica, and as a result butterflied Athens?
Some things I thought of off the top of my head; no Greco-Persian Wars most likely, the Attic Dorians would not have much love for the Ionians of Anatolia and would not protect them as easily. If they did fight it is most likely a victory for Persia. No Delian League, No Athenian Empire, No Peloponnesian War, more sea-faring Dorians (less Athenian domination and good location for the Attic Dorians to start growing a naval power base). No Alexander the Great. More Dorian Colonies (like Syracuse). Very different rise to power for Rome. Perhaps more phoenician power depending on the naval power the Attic Dorians and alt-Dorians in general have.
 
First,if the Dorian invasion was real(like if the Amazon campaign in Athens was real) which has been greatly disputed and also that the Dorians were repelled in Attica.
 
First,if the Dorian invasion was real(like if the Amazon campaign in Athens was real) which has been greatly disputed and also that the Dorians were repelled in Attica.
The Dorian Invasion is probably mostly untrue, however I believe there was a Dorian Migration as I said in my post. I am not totally sure what you mean in that second part, but I am saying what if they did take Attica.
 
The consensus seems to be a slow, steady shift of populations rather than a sudden violent displacement (as in many other "invasion" theories, i.e. the Indo-Aryan and Slavic invasions).
 
The consensus seems to be a slow, steady shift of populations rather than a sudden violent displacement (as in many other "invasion" theories, i.e. the Indo-Aryan and Slavic invasions).
I never said it has to be fast or violent! I am just saying what if it happened as a natural extension of the actual Dorian Migration. I am not sure what the problem is here!
 
I never said it has to be fast or violent! I am just saying what if it happened as a natural extension of the actual Dorian Migration. I am not sure what the problem is here!

Nor do I!

Still, why do you think there would be that much difference?

Any city on the site of athens is likely to either be a trading power, as otls athens was, or not very important.

If they are traders they are likely to sympathize with their customers even if the talk funny ie different dialect.

If they are unimportant, then their relations with ionia are the least of the changes. No?
 
The Dorian Invasion is probably mostly untrue, however I believe there was a Dorian Migration as I said in my post. I am not totally sure what you mean in that second part, but I am saying what if they did take Attica.

A Dorian invasion would be followed by the Migration,natural in those days,but according to Bury&Meiggs:"Ancient History of Greece to 323 BC"
At the reputed period of Dorian invasion the population of Peloponnese fell instead of being increased;have you got another hypothesis willbell?
 
A Dorian invasion would be followed by the Migration,natural in those days,but according to Bury&Meiggs:"Ancient History of Greece to 323 BC"
At the reputed period of Dorian invasion the population of Peloponnese fell instead of being increased;have you got another hypothesis willbell?
:confused:
Wait what is your position?
 
:confused:
Wait what is your position?

I say I don't really know;it is an area covered mainly by archaologists and such evidence is very slim indeed! i.f.o Dorian hypothesis is the sudden(almost) destruction of the Mycenaic palaces,but by whom? I should look better into it,but I have no books in the country where I am,since all the contents of my bookcases are at home....and wikipedia and some such are totally unreliable or unverified or what have you...
The only relevant part of this is the legent of king Kodros of Athens.That king is said to have saved Athens from the Dorian invasion by personal sacrifice.The Dorians left and the Athenians,to honour their king,abolished kingship since no other king would be as good king for his people as he was(the story took place around 1000 BC).Draw your own conclusions willbell...
 
Thank you, I was unaware of the legend. It might be useful in having a mythology to go along with the PoD, after all this basically expels Ionians from Mainland Greece. What I am asking is what if whatever Dorian (X/Migration/Invasion/Other) happened to extend as far as Attica, enveloping the region as well as their OTL holdings. And with that in mind, what is the results for the world. What if our timeline was altered in such a way?
 
Willbell,
I don't know if the story is a myth;if there isn't enough evidence about a story,that doesn't necessarily qualify it as a myth.The fact that the Athenians kept their promise and kingship never returned while it existed all over Greece may be proof enouph;the same applies to the story about the invasion of the Amazons;the surrounding indications are too disturbing
to qualify it as a myth.
As far as I recall there are two communities in Attica(North-Western Attica) that are Doric:Marathon and Vravrona.Until today,there are words in their Greek which come directly from the Doric dialect,how? don't ask I wouldn't know the answer,but that is even more disturbing!

I will therefore assume,just for a moment that your assumption is correct and we go on from there:

I) I can see a Doric domination of the Greek Mainland.That will include Crete since the island was mostly Dorian.
2)If not Dorian Athens,Corinth and Megara(probably with Aegina as well) would constitute the naval arm of the Dorians(as they were in the Spartan alliance even though Spartans had also had a small navy.)
3) The Doric army would be the most fearsome single conception on earth at that time.The Spartan alliance would leave no hope to the Thebans who would be part of that alliance.
4)Politically Greece would be more mature and its systems of goverment advanced by millenia almost.Now days,western societies have a form of democracy more akin to the system of Sparta than that of Athens.
5) A Dorian Athens would be much more dangerous than Sparta,if it had the same system(I believe they would) because it would have the population.About Persian wars I wouldn't be too sure:Many of the Greek colonies in east and west were dorian ones(Megarian etc...) .I am certain that the Persians,being arrogant Persians would have stepped on the toes of Sparta's allies at some point in time and the result would be completly different:the ultimatum would have come from the Spartan side this time(leave those cities untouched or else...) because the Spartan alliance would number at least three times the army they arrayed in Plataea,and their allied navy would still be superior to the Phoenician and even more so in seamanship with Megara,Aegina,and Corinth leading it.
In short I can see Archidamos before the gates of Susa two hundred years before Alexander.

Tha t is what I consider only Part One....(of stiring a hornet's Nest!)
 
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The system of government for Sparta reminds me of british government (house of commons (democracy), house of lords (oligarchy), and the royal family (monarchy)), however it would have some small alterations I believe for Attica. First of all, the population would be larger so it would be more difficult to give every member a vote in every decision, so it might end up like Athens with a representative democracy. It will probably be similar to Athens in wealth, navy, and openness, much like Corinth.
I think I might make this into a TL eventually once I am satisfied with how my current one ends (not an easy task).
 
The system of government for Sparta reminds me of british government (house of commons (democracy), house of lords (oligarchy), and the royal family (monarchy)), however it would have some small alterations I believe for Attica. First of all, the population would be larger so it would be more difficult to give every member a vote in every decision, so it might end up like Athens with a representative democracy. It will probably be similar to Athens in wealth, navy, and openness, much like Corinth.
I think I might make this into a TL eventually once I am satisfied with how my current one ends (not an easy task).

Willbell,it is just the time of SS 27 centuries before its time in the good sence(the opposite of Hitlerites) but with the same iron discipline and effectiveness(even more so) but a more just governing system;
you speak about England:don't forget that the system in England when it started didn't give the right of the vote to more than 100000 people(40 shilling holders,copy holders etc) The assembley in Sparta voted by a Yes or No vote like a referendum;more just,it was like:"we the goverment have analysed the reasons for the necessity or non-necessity of this law,you tell us now if you want it or not!"-naturally,not every Tom Dick and Harry is a law maker or has the necessary knowledge of world affairs.

Anyway you will have 10 times (least stronger Sparta-inclusive of Argos this time and Macedonia as a result-and 100 times more effective since 9/10s of Greece would be under Spartan Hegemony,with Corinth its close partner holding the finances and the Treasury of the alliance;Sparta would have the final saying,but very democratically on the others and hold external affairs and panhellenic agoge for the young.
Read in Google "Sparta Reconsidered" at elysiumgates(the adress is correct).
 
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