WI Donar's Oak fell on St. Boniface

In OTL, the Vita Bonifatii auctore Willibaldi, written in the 8th Century, recounted the felling of Donar's Oak in Hesse by St. Boniface in his efforts to Christianize the Germanics. IOTL, basically nothing bad happened with the felling and the saint was able to hold it as evidence, for lack of a better word, of the falsehood of the old Germanic gods compared to the Christian God.

However, what if an accident occurred in the felling, with the trunk falling on the priest by some severe lapse of judgement or just pure bad luck. How would it delay Christianization, if at all, and for how long? You are allowed to vary the extent of his injuries from minor to outright death and adjust your argument accordingly.

Also, apologies if this is offensive to Christians. :eek:
 
It would probably not being written down (or only being a secondary incident) and wouldn't have changed durably the ongoing political trend of missions in Germany (Frankish interests were too important there to be really challenged). Heck, for all we know, such things may have happened IOTL, but Carolingians simply didn't feel like saying it.

Assuming it really happened as such in first place.

Remember that chronicles on missionaries or anything religious were heavily inspired by biblical accounts.

St. Boniface or St. Martin "let's cut the tree and see where it falls" is an "updated" account of Elijah's challenge to Baal's priests (1 Kings 18.16-32)

I stress the first point : Peppinids/Carolingians were really about christianizing Frankish Germania and outer regions : it allowed them to structure their presence (missions protection, monasteries being really clear of frankish power) and to tie alliances with papacy. Failures (such as missionary deaths in Frisia, or unsuccessful Anglo-Saxons missions in Saxony) were problematic but eventually didn't provoked radical changes in this policy.
 
It would probably not being written down (or only being a secondary incident) and wouldn't have changed durably the ongoing political trend of missions in Germany (Frankish interests were too important there to be really challenged). Heck, for all we know, such things may have happened IOTL, but Carolingians simply didn't feel like saying it.

Assuming it really happened as such in first place.

Remember that chronicles on missionaries or anything religious were heavily inspired by biblical accounts.

St. Boniface or St. Martin "let's cut the tree and see where it falls" is an "updated" account of Elijah's challenge to Baal's priests (1 Kings 18.16-32)

I stress the first point : Peppinids/Carolingians were really about christianizing Frankish Germania and outer regions : it allowed them to structure their presence (missions protection, monasteries being really clear of frankish power) and to tie alliances with papacy. Failures (such as missionary deaths in Frisia, or unsuccessful Anglo-Saxons missions in Saxony) were problematic but eventually didn't provoked radical changes in this policy.

Makes sense. I made the assumption that the incident, while obviously heavily embellished with biblical comparison, had some grounding in a real incident. Not sure if I consider that was valid, now. I might have underestimated the monasteries' ability to make stuff up. :confused:
 
He'll be hailed as a martyr who was killed while chopping down a pagan shrine. Some other missionary will finish the job later, the process goes on.

One dead saint will not stop the progress, heck a martyr would be beneficial :D
 
Makes sense. I made the assumption that the incident, while obviously heavily embellished with biblical comparison, had some grounding in a real incident. Not sure if I consider that was valid, now. I might have underestimated the monasteries' ability to make stuff up. :confused:

Well, it's very much possible that it was based on an actual incident. Early medieval missionaries were the kind of people to attempt so.
Arguably, it's not because it's influenced by biblical lecture, that it's not true : they could have tried to emulate this or other missionary lives.
I just pointed out the equal possibility of re-writting the history of missions to fit a trend.

(Life of Saints tend to follow many of these, at the point that many lives of minor saints are actually some litterary Frankenstein : 1st part coming from Saint A, second part coming from Saint X and Y, etc.)

But that a real incident happened is quite possible. (Hence why I tried to moderate this precise point by "happening as such". Guess I should be more precise from now on).
 
Well, it's very much possible that it was based on an actual incident. Early medieval missionaries were the kind of people to attempt so.
Arguably, it's not because it's influenced by biblical lecture, that it's not true : they could have tried to emulate this or other missionary lives.
I just pointed out the equal possibility of re-writting the history of missions to fit a trend.

(Life of Saints tend to follow many of these, at the point that many lives of minor saints are actually some litterary Frankenstein : 1st part coming from Saint A, second part coming from Saint X and Y, etc.)

But that a real incident happened is quite possible. (Hence why I tried to moderate this precise point by "happening as such". Guess I should be more precise from now on).

Ah, thanks.
 
Here I was, trying to remember any famous trees in the French suburb of Winnipeg. :) (To a Francophile growing up on the Canadian prairies, this is the first meaning of "St. Boniface" that springs to mind.)
 
Heh. I doubt it would significantly delay the Christianization, but...heh.

It would also be pretty cool if the Bishop Absalon was accidentally flattened by a statue of Swietowit at Rugen.
 

Redhand

Banned
Heh. I doubt it would significantly delay the Christianization, but...heh.

It would also be pretty cool if the Bishop Absalon was accidentally flattened by a statue of Swietowit at Rugen.

I mean not really, as that would involve people dying, which isn't really cool.

But as for Christianization, if this was widespread knowledge, it might help Pagan Authorities in Germany strengthen propaganda about Christianity and the superiority of the old gods. If it was simply localized and not relatively well known, then the missionaries would carry on and maybe use Boniface as a martyr.

Of course, Germany being Christianized in my view is going to happen as the efforts of the missionaries was quite determined and well organized in comparison to efforts in India and Persia, where established faiths with organization and support of a state apparatus could freely suppress the Christian missionaries, while in Germany, the state apparatus behind Paganism was so much weaker than the Frankish Christian, let alone Papal, one.
 
I mean not really, as that would involve people dying, which isn't really cool.

Well, he could always merely get a broken leg and a few bruises, to an almost identical level of amusement and increased faith for any pagans watching.
 
Well, he could always merely get a broken leg and a few bruises, to an almost identical level of amusement and increased faith for any pagans watching.

Eh, the statue still fell, the Chrisitans could easily spin it as the triumph of Christ even if man has to sacrifice and suffer for the true faith, verily!
 

Redhand

Banned
Eh, the statue still fell, the Chrisitans could easily spin it as the triumph of Christ even if man has to sacrifice and suffer for the true faith, verily!

The missionaries were pretty successful as it was. They must have realized that using tests of faith to a culture based on strength was a good idea, and it did its job.
 
The missionaries were pretty successful as it was. They must have realized that using tests of faith to a culture based on strength was a good idea, and it did its job.

Considering the pagans seem to be in no position to defend their shrines when the missionaries destroyed it, I'm fairly certain the pagans were already defeated and the whole shrine thing is just for extra propaganda.

Assuming, as someone earlier noted, if the pagan shrines were actually destoyed by said saints/missionaries, and not just purely fictional propaganda.
 
I'm fairly certain the pagans were already defeated and the whole shrine thing is just for extra propaganda.
You should be less certain then. The VIIIth missions were made as well in territories outside Frankish Germania, where pagans geo-political entities weren't a thing since centuries (while germanic rites were still a thing, though) but as well outside among people neighbouring Franks (as Saxons or Frisons).
How Boniface meet his doom in Frisia (hint : he was killed), does show that.

Of course, I can only stress the point above : be careful to not mix biblical and christian hagiographies of the IV/Vth centuries and events of the VIIIth that while probably a thing, were written in order to draw literary parallels.

It's not a matter of truth vs. propaganda, but the pregnance of literary and religious tropes. Doesn't mean it didn't happened just because, but that the context it was written down was a christian context, with a christian interpretation. A bit of historical and analytic subtlety can help there.
 
Last edited:
Top