WI:Dolça II of Provence marries Raimon VI of Toulouse

This betrothal did not happen because of the untimely death of Douce II of Provence, what if she did not die and married Raymond VI if Toulouse gained Provence due to that marriage what would happen to Toulouse-Provence, would the Albigensian Crusade be butterflied?
 
Regarding Provence nothing changes : after the death of the father of Douce, Raymond V (VII) used the alliance made at Beaucaire with Raymond-Berenger III and the betrothal to poses himself as a protector of her rights.

He might even have married her mother, but this is less likely and kind of debated.

The thing is, there were conflicts (diplomatical more than military, at least at first) between Aragon and Toulouse about Provence, then more global.
I don't see any reason that this PoD could have changed that, and I would more likely thing it would make it certainly happen.

These wars aren't well known, and had period of more "diplomatical" war than military (while you had several expeditions plundering the county).

One of their result was the confirmation of 1125 treaty in 1776, and Alphonse of Aragon had to buy the claim of Raimond VI (VIII) on southern Provence.

At this date, Raimond focus was less on Provence than Bas-Langudeoc as the Aragonese diplomatical policy began to make counties as Melgueil turning on their influence.

War continued like this up to 1190's.

I really don't see how Douce's survival could have butterflied something here.
You'll say that maybe Alphonse of Aragon would have maybe more respected claim from Toulouse if Douce was still alive : I really doubt it.

Since 1166, ignoring her rights when she was still alive, he searched (and gained) the support of many provencal houses, as well the one of Pascal II (antipope), and took the title of Count of Provence.

Now, your question is a bit, allow me this word, vague and maybe a more precise idea would help to make some AH.
 
Regarding Provence nothing changes : after the death of the father of Douce, Raymond V (VII) used the alliance made at Beaucaire with Raymond-Berenger III and the betrothal to poses himself as a protector of her rights.

He might even have married her mother, but this is less likely and kind of debated.

The thing is, there were conflicts (diplomatical more than military, at least at first) between Aragon and Toulouse about Provence, then more global.
I don't see any reason that this PoD could have changed that, and I would more likely thing it would make it certainly happen.

These wars aren't well known, and had period of more "diplomatical" war than military (while you had several expeditions plundering the county).

One of their result was the confirmation of 1125 treaty in 1776, and Alphonse of Aragon had to buy the claim of Raimond VI (VIII) on southern Provence.

At this date, Raimond focus was less on Provence than Bas-Langudeoc as the Aragonese diplomatical policy began to make counties as Melgueil turning on their influence.

War continued like this up to 1190's.

I really don't see how Douce's survival could have butterflied something here.
You'll say that maybe Alphonse of Aragon would have maybe more respected claim from Toulouse if Douce was still alive : I really doubt it.

Since 1166, ignoring her rights when she was still alive, he searched (and gained) the support of many provencal houses, as well the one of Pascal II (antipope), and took the title of Count of Provence.

Now, your question is a bit, allow me this word, vague and maybe a more precise idea would help to make some AH.
So Douce would be just an another Philippa of Toulouse...


Actually, My real question was if Douce survived and married Raymond VI of Toulouse would the Cathar Crusade still happen and would Raymond VI still be the man who allowed Cathars to flourish and would Douce's son claim Provence?

Well, the problem with Raymond VI is that he makes two enemies the Angevin Empire and Aragon...but he has Barbarossa as an ally.
 
Actually, My real question was if Douce survived and married Raymond VI of Toulouse would the Cathar Crusade still happen and would Raymond VI still be the man who allowed Cathars to flourish and would Douce's son claim Provence?
I don't see why it wouldn't. As I said, Douce survival alone makes little if no difference ITTL.

Well, the problem with Raymond VI is that he makes two enemies the Angevin Empire and Aragon...but he has Barbarossa as an ally.
Bof...A really passive ally, then. And he had the Trencavel to deal with.

His first ally is Philipp August, that wasn't that enthusiast at the idea of Richard being Count of Toulouse in addition of his other titles.

The biggest problem of Raimond V is to be less skilled than his father at first. He didn't saw the danger he was within before it was too late, and he payed the hard price for that. he didn't seem to understood that Crusaders didn't cared too much about his good will.

However, he does seem to have gained experience during the Crusade, but it would have been better for him he could have done before.

And admittedly, if Peter II of Aragon didn't tried the famed "Aragonese Aragorn Attack" also known as "CHAAAAARGE" and listened to Raimon VI, maybe he wouldn't have ended, well, death.
 
Top