WI Disaster at Pearl Harbor

robdab2

Banned
Calbear,

The Japanese had huge problems with the sub lines around Pearl. They never even got a sniff of the Enterprise coming into port or going out, -Not quite true. Lundstrom's "First Team" details on pages 24 & 25 an IJN submarine torpedo fired at the "Big E" on the evening of Dec.10'41 and another at 0900 on Dec.11 which only missed her butt by some 20 yards. Both to the north of Oahu, after she had re-fueled on Dec.8-9'41.

Surely two fascinating "what if's" for future discussion.

IIRC wasn't Saratoga torpedoed on Jan 11'42 by one of the PH I-boats ?

The winds would actually force the Japanese to head towards the American subs that had sortied if they were launching or recovering aircraft.- Yes but the launch times for the first and second waves were but 15 minutes each so we are not talking about the KB travelling very far towards the US subamrines out to the east.

The I boats were excellent designs, and they carried great torpedoes, but their results were awful in the scouting/interdiction role.- Do you have any thoughts on why that was ? I've always wondered why 30 odd IJN subs didn't bag any USN warships right after the PH strikes, other than a few minor merchant vessels.

Are you intersted in a discussion of Oahu's coastal artillery defenses vs some Japanese battleships ? Sure. It isn't a particular area of expertise of mine, but some information is always worthwhile.- Here or is it best to start a new thread and leave this one for ongoing IJN submarine discussion ?
 

CalBear

Moderator
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Calbear,


Are you intersted in a discussion of Oahu's coastal artillery defenses vs some Japanese battleships ? Sure. It isn't a particular area of expertise of mine, but some information is always worthwhile.- Here or is it best to start a new thread and leave this one for ongoing IJN submarine discussion ?

Probably a new thread, maybe for both. It will likely get more interest. There are a couple of posters who are pretty well versed in artillery who might want to talk about the Coastal Batteries.
 

robdab2

Banned
IJN Submarines Around Pearl Harbor ?

Does anyone have any theories as to why they did so poorly at sinking American vessels in Hawaiian waters after the Pearl Harbor attacks ?

Was it just a lack of easy targets since the US West Coast stopped all sailings to Hawaii until sufficient convoy escorts could be gathered ?

There were some 28 well designed I-boats lurking there and it seems strange to me that they accomplished so little real destruction.
 
Does anyone have any theories as to why they did so poorly at sinking American vessels in Hawaiian waters after the Pearl Harbor attacks ?

Was it just a lack of easy targets since the US West Coast stopped all sailings to Hawaii until sufficient convoy escorts could be gathered ?

There were some 28 well designed I-boats lurking there and it seems strange to me that they accomplished so little real destruction.
Well, I don't know if this applies to the I-boats around Hawaii in late 1941 and early 1942, but in overall, Japanese submarine tactics differed greatly from western submarine tactics.
The Japanese used their subs as scouts, to locate, follow, and then attack enemy task forces.
Of course, sinking a warship is a lot harder than sinking a merchant, not in the least because the warships maximum speed will be about 3 times that of a submerged submarine.
 

robdab2

Banned
DeathDemon,

The Japanese used their subs as scouts, to locate, follow, and then attack enemy task forces. - Yes but that is what mystifies me about the Allied merchant ships that they DID sink around Hawaii. And there were several, non military sinkings. Some even by risky deck gun attacks.

If your mission is to scout for US task forces then why give away your position at all, let alone by a long slow single gun surface attack that exposes your boat to return damage and gives your (supposed) victim lots of time to radio report your position too.
 
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