WI: Different Strategic Bombing Targets

Having even smaller quantities of fuel vs. what was historically so means even less training for pilots, that means they get killed easier, while not being able to dent Allied war effort. Less fuel also means LW flies less combat sorties. Not good prospects when one is out-numbered already by 1942. The sudden drop in LW capability = Allied AFs can make ever more damage to the targets of their choosing (chemical factories, marshalling yards, you name it), thus the vicious circle expands. Less losses to the bombers means the Allied bomber force grows quicker than historically, another vicious cycle for Germany. Germany with Luftwaffe removed from equation is kinda the can that is opened at the top.
As for the stockpiles - once can stockiple what it has as a surplus, the POL was not on that list for Germany.
We can also recall that trucks, tanks and other AFVs are useless without fuel. An army without means of at least counter-attack (if not outright offensive) presents themsleves on a silver plate to the enemy that can concentrate at will and choose the area of attack.
When do you envision the allies shutting down most of Germany's POL production ? I don't see this happening before mid 1944.
 
Why not ? Presumably lab scale and pilot scale production could been scaled up and replicated if there was no alternative ?

Presumably there would be underground factory space made avalaible for this as well ?

The proposals need money, material, manpower and time. Neither of the comodities was up to grabs in Germany of 1942-45.
 
The proposals need money, material, manpower and time. Neither of the comodities was up to grabs in Germany of 1942-45.
I seem to recall the Germans built a number of under ground facilities during the war. Presumably if faced with a sustained attack on the POL industries there would have been some changes in which industries got moved under ground.
 

kernals12

Banned
Why not ? Presumably lab scale and pilot scale production could been scaled up and replicated if there was no alternative ?

Presumably there would be underground factory space made avalaible for this as well ?

Edit to add I can probably accept that there may have been critical bottle necks in high octane aviation gasoline but I'm thinking other fuel production would have been easier.
There wouldn't have been enough storage space. You would've needed round the clock transportation and train cars were in short supply trying to get ever more soldiers to their deaths on the Russian front even without Anglo-American attacks.
 

Deleted member 1487

I seem to recall the Germans built a number of under ground facilities during the war. Presumably if faced with a sustained attack on the POL industries there would have been some changes in which industries got moved under ground.
Few were active or any bit as productive as the overground facilities. If they are moved underground it is only after a long lag time that they become operational and even then only marginally productive. In the meantime the war is lost.
 
When do you envision the allies shutting down most of Germany's POL production ? I don't see this happening before mid 1944.

I don't have a fixed date, but early-mid 1943 sounds great. It would've meant that WAllies get realistic on self-defending day bombers by late 1940 (BoB teaches the lesson) and on type of targets choosen (no de-housing, no attack on an odd factory). Will need long-range fighter escort (feasible on 1939/40 techology), better training for night & bad weather navigation and bombing starting in 1940, introduction of night intruders to harras night fighters.
 
I seem to recall the Germans built a number of under ground facilities during the war. Presumably if faced with a sustained attack on the POL industries there would have been some changes in which industries got moved under ground.

This:

Few were active or any bit as productive as the overground facilities. If they are moved underground it is only after a long lag time that they become operational and even then only marginally productive. In the meantime the war is lost.
 
There wouldn't have been enough storage space. You would've needed round the clock transportation and train cars were in short supply trying to get ever more soldiers to their deaths on the Russian front even without Anglo-American attacks.
Well if the historical attacks on the rail network, repair yards, factories etc were re tasked to hunting down dispersed fuel production perhaps the Germans would have had more rail transport to work with :)
 
Yes I would go for POL, Electricity, Rail and Canal hubs in that order

POL is obvious

Electricity - Germany's problem was the inability to load balance (I think thats the term) electricity across the entire grid if the local powerstation or infrastructure was knocked out in a given area - ie it was difficult to take power from elsewhere in the country to make up shortfalls

Without it factories cannot operate, no refrigeration, no lighting etc, city and town tram systems crippled

Rail and Canal hubs - difficult to repair quickly (and I am talking viaducts and tunnels here as well as lock networks and major rail depots) and necessary for the movement of the majority of the nations coal - also the German Army was largely reliant on railheads for movement and logistics

Specific armament and Munition factories would still be on the list but at a lower priority than OTL
 

kernals12

Banned
Well if the historical attacks on the rail network, repair yards, factories etc were re tasked to hunting down dispersed fuel production perhaps the Germans would have had more rail transport to work with :)
I think the allies would've figured out it was much more effective to hit the rail network which had important chokepoints out in the open vulnerable to attack.
 
I don't have a fixed date, but early-mid 1943 sounds great. It would've meant that WAllies get realistic on self-defending day bombers by late 1940 (BoB teaches the lesson) and on type of targets choosen (no de-housing, no attack on an odd factory). Will need long-range fighter escort (feasible on 1939/40 techology), better training for night & bad weather navigation and bombing starting in 1940, introduction of night intruders to harras night fighters.
Maybe, but if the Germans can concentrate their defences at their POL production and above ground bulk storage sites and don't need to worry abut defending their population centres, the Rhur, ship yards, naval bases, air craft factories, tanks factories, truck factories, locomotive work shops, air fields etc then I suspect the Luftwaffe will have an easier time inflicting losses on the allied air forces. Even if at first the Luftwaffe continues to defend other targets at some point I expect they are going to decide to shift most of their forces to defend their remaining POL production.

Along the way, the rest of the German war industry gets a free pass from bomb damage. I suspect there will be a lot of ripple effects.
 
I think the allies would've figured out it was much more effective to hit the rail network which had important chokepoints out in the open vulnerable to attack.
My point. I don't believe focusing on one target set (ie. POL) and leaving other key targets (ie. Transport) alone makes sense.
 
The proposals need money, material, manpower and time. Neither of the comodities was up to grabs in Germany of 1942-45.
Well I suspect the Germans might have looked at re tasking the resources put into projects such as the V2 if they were faced with the systematic and methodical destruction of their POL industry and the rest of their economy was un touched. If nothing else the (non petroleum based) materials used to produce rocket fuel might have found other uses.
 
Maybe, but if the Germans can concentrate their defences at their POL production and above ground bulk storage sites and don't need to worry abut defending their population centres, the Rhur, ship yards, naval bases, air craft factories, tanks factories, truck factories, locomotive work shops, air fields etc then I suspect the Luftwaffe will have an easier time inflicting losses on the allied air forces. Even if at first the Luftwaffe continues to defend other targets at some point I expect they are going to decide to shift most of their forces to defend their remaining POL production.

Along the way, the rest of the German war industry gets a free pass from bomb damage. I suspect there will be a lot of ripple effects.

What the Germans can concentrate, and where exactly? They historically fielded much smaller number of fighters than either of the UK, USA or USSR, the heavy Flak is already concentrated around production centers, and thousands of those were historically unable to thwart any WAllied bombing offensive on their own.
Let's also not asume that Allied leaders are stupid. The very moment they realize that other German assets are defeseless, they will plaster those assets. Say, 14 days of POL offensive, 2 days attacking electrical production & distribution centres, 2 days chemical factories, then again 7 days against POL, 2 days vs. marshaling yards. They can take advantage of Flak forces being unable to shift into defense as fast as the fighters can.
 
Well I suspect the Germans might have looked at re tasking the resources put into projects such as the V2 if they were faced with the systematic and methodical destruction of their POL industry and the rest of their economy was un touched. If nothing else the (non petroleum based) materials used to produce rocket fuel might have found other uses.

Granted, switching the resources from V2 project can net the Germans a more realistic gain. I'd try to design & produce jet fighters by mid-1943, those can use heavy fuels (diesel, kerosene etc) that Germany has a surplus.
 
What the Germans can concentrate, and where exactly? They historically fielded much smaller number of fighters than either of the UK, USA or USSR, the heavy Flak is already concentrated around production centers, and thousands of those were historically unable to thwart any WAllied bombing offensive on their own.
Let's also not asume that Allied leaders are stupid. The very moment they realize that other German assets are defeseless, they will plaster those assets. Say, 14 days of POL offensive, 2 days attacking electrical production & distribution centres, 2 days chemical factories, then again 7 days against POL, 2 days vs. marshaling yards. They can take advantage of Flak forces being unable to shift into defense as fast as the fighters can.
I agree switching between target sets would have been better than just focusing on one target set :)

That being said I can't see why all most all of the German flak wouldn't haven't been concentrated at their remaining POL sites if the allies had destroyed say the first 90 percent and left other targets un touched. Heck I can see the Germans trying to encourage the allies to hit other targets so they can desperately produce more lubricants for example.
 
Granted, switching the resources from V2 project can net the Germans a more realistic gain. I'd try to design & produce jet fighters by mid-1943, those can use heavy fuels (diesel, kerosene etc) that Germany has a surplus.
Yes if faced with the early destruction of their historical POL industry I suspect Jet engine development might have been emphasized. Perhaps diesel aero engine development might have also been emphasized.

Edit to add I suppose rocket powered interceptor aircraft might have been produced in greater numbers. I seem to recall they were historically used to defend synthetic fuel plants IOTL.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Well if the historical attacks on the rail network, repair yards, factories etc were re tasked to hunting down dispersed fuel production perhaps the Germans would have had more rail transport to work with :)
They wouldn't need to due to disrupted rail keeping POL output stuck in the factories waiting for transport.
 
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