WI: Developed Country semi-abolishes compulsory education post-primary

King Thomas

Banned
Do people *need* lessons in Art, History ect anyway? The elite would still make sure their children got those lessons and it would prevent the clever members of the working class from competing with the rich.
It's not as if history or art was banned-people who wanted to could still study/do it as a hobby.
 
Do people *need* lessons in Art, History ect anyway? The elite would still make sure their children got those lessons and it would prevent the clever members of the working class from competing with the rich.
It's not as if history or art was banned-people who wanted to could still study/do it as a hobby.

Don't be so quick to dismiss the more... Well artistic aspects of education. Again, diversity of education produces diversity in thought. Education isn't only about teaching facts, it's ideally about teaching a way to critically assess the world around you.

Studying history may teach you the date of the American Revolution, but it can also teach you important critical assessment skills such as judging source bias, an incredibly useful skill in a media saturated world.

In the same vein, studying English can tell you the story of Romeo and Juliet, but it can also teach you the ability to critically assess literature which can translate into critical thinking in other aspects of you life.

Schools should also be a place where individuals learn their own strengths and areas of interest. Personally arts, classics and history were infinitely more beneficial for furthering my own growth than science, maths or IT, and for other I imagine the opposite is true. Variety gives opportunity.

In this proposed scenario, having less options available is probably going to encourage more drop outs as there are even less areas that a prospecting student can try and find an interest in. Assuming this is a still a democratic, Western nation as per the OP, I cant imagine the government that puts this into play is going to last long. The social impact alone is going to cause headaches.
 
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If I'd studied Law instead of History I might have a job as a lawyer now.

Or you burn out like me at law school. I got told there were only a few professions worth pursuing at uni (law school being one of them) and it ended up being a miserable slog. I didn't even conceive of taking the degree I ended up in, but I learned a lot and its helped me land a good start to a career.

Its better to give people broader choice in education because if you limit it, there's a much higher chance someone goes "Ah fuck it, I don't want to study anything".

Besides this is at a high school level, you don't want to be encouraging kids at age 14 to bail on school altogether by offering them a few select choices in style and content. That's an issue in education already, removing even more options only exaserbates the issue.
 
You're all forgetting the major reason for schools. Education is a very useful by-product but it's free childcare so parents can hold a job (or at least means somebody else keeps them from getting under their feet);)
 

chankljp

Donor
Don't be so quick to dismiss the more... Well artistic aspects of education. Again, diversity of education produces diversity in thought. Education isn't only about teaching facts, it's ideally about teaching a way to critically assess the world around you.

Well, that's the idea of what they are supposed to do anyway...

But in my personal experience studying for both the IB and getting a MA in Politics and International Relations, as well as by talking to a number of educator (including my own mother), in a traditional school environment, the humanities subjects usually end up devolving into a memorisation exercise on hitting all the 'key points' on a checklist of pre-approved conclusions that you are allowed to reach in order to score points when it comes time for an assessment or an exam.

As such, as a student, you DO indeed end up learning a very vital skill in the modern world... The skill of how to analysis the system, then proceed to the 'game' and exploit the loop holes: Namely by figuring out what is going to be on that list by doing research (Looking up past papers, or hiring a tutor to do that for you), memorising them by heart, and regurgitating them back to the person grading your assignment in the most easy to tick off the checklist way possible.

Which, once again, ARE indeed very useful skills in 'real life' when it comes to getting an office job. But not in a way that promotes critical thinking in society. :confused: Something that I am honestly learning more of here on AH.com or by talking to other people that are interested in history, instead of my 4 years studying in university, and 6 years in the IB.
 
History is a pretty worthless subject. If you aren't interested in it by your preteen years, you probably never will be and a history class in high school or worse, mandatory gen-ed history classes in college, are wasting your time. Same goes with literature classes--they mostly teach you to hate old books and literary classics than to appreciate them. Even a good teacher will still have segments of their class finding the material utterly pointless. History and literature classes should be about teaching critical thinking, how to read sources and discern information from them, as well as promoting civic and cultural engagement. The problem is this places a lot of emphasis on primary educators in developing students.

But it would be bad to entirely abolish secondary education, since it still has a lot of potential. If we went entirely to charter schools and other private education which was serving the vast majority of children, and those schools stripped out these subjects and replaced them with practical STEM courses and maybe more importantly, personal finance (this is a huge one!) and other skills necessary to function in society, I don't think we'd see much of a problem, even a generation later. Maybe those particularly skilled in literature or history would be able to take classes to further their knowledge at some other sort of high school (which would be as expensive as a typical charter school). The important part is that teenagers are in school rather than on the streets or doing whatever all day. I'm not advocating for charter schools or vouchers BTW (I'd much rather we fix public education and give it to everyone), it's just a plausible sort of education reform which might be undertaken in a Western country nowadays.

Which, once again, ARE indeed very useful skills in 'real life' when it comes to getting an office job. But not in a way that promotes critical thinking in society. :confused: Something that I am honestly learning more of here on AH.com or by talking to other people that are interested in history, instead of my 4 years studying in university, and 6 years in the IB.

I have a bachelor's degree in history, and I learned much more reading Wikipedia and AH.com and looking up sources than I ever did in college-level classes. I'd hesitate to say I learned much outside of books/papers I had to read for classes or for writing papers, although I would likely not have found those books/papers without professors recommending them to me. I remember joking to my friends and parents that I'd learn more spending a typical class time (90 minutes) on AH.com than I would going to class.
 
Well, that's the idea of what they are supposed to do anyway...

But in my personal experience studying for both the IB and getting a MA in Politics and International Relations, as well as by talking to a number of educator (including my own mother), in a traditional school environment, the humanities subjects usually end up devolving into a memorisation exercise on hitting all the 'key points' on a checklist of pre-approved conclusions that you are allowed to reach in order to score points when it comes time for an assessment or an exam.

As such, as a student, you DO indeed end up learning a very vital skill in the modern world... The skill of how to analysis the system, then proceed to the 'game' and exploit the loop holes: Namely by figuring out what is going to be on that list by doing research (Looking up past papers, or hiring a tutor to do that for you), memorising them by heart, and regurgitating them back to the person grading your assignment in the most easy to tick off the checklist way possible.

Which, once again, ARE indeed very useful skills in 'real life' when it comes to getting an office job. But not in a way that promotes critical thinking in society. :confused: Something that I am honestly learning more of here on AH.com or by talking to other people that are interested in history, instead of my 4 years studying in university, and 6 years in the IB.

I guess it comes down to different strokes, I mean seemingly nothing in education prepares you perfectly for how the world operates. Small talk and basic time management ironically seemed far more useful than any paper I completed XD
 

Perkeo

Banned
Do people *need* lessons in Art, History ect anyway?
As a German, I.know a good reason why we have a responsibility to teach our kids about history...
And as for art: The majority of people either work on a product that has a design, hold presentations, etc.
The elite would still make sure their children got those lessons and it would prevent the clever members of the working class from competing with the rich.
1) Unemployment of college graduates is not really an issue, unless you have chosen the wrong subject.
2) The essential abolishment will cost an awful lot of jobs for educated people.
3) The elite will work day and night to finance and organize their childrens’ education-and curse a political system that forces them to do so.
4) A developed society that educates no skilled workers but only unskilled laborers won’t stay developed for very long.
It's not as if history or art was banned-people who wanted to could still study/do it as a hobby.
You need some basics to start from even foe a hobby.
 
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