WI:Destroying the Papal States early

How could we get rid of the Papal States during the Ottonian period of the HRE, will there be a backlash and after the confiscation of Papal States Lazio will be the border of the HRE and the ERE.
 
It may not be permanently gone but it is possible to have the Arabs do better in Italy to the point of conquering Rome which would for the moment end the papal state. Otherwise probably not, attacking the Papacy would be out of the question for the HRE given how much temporal power it held against the emperor.
 
It may not be permanently gone but it is possible to have the Arabs do better in Italy to the point of conquering Rome which would for the moment end the papal state. Otherwise probably not, attacking the Papacy would be out of the question for the HRE given how much temporal power it held against the emperor.
Could the Byzantines do that?
 
Could the Byzantines do that?

Possibly but unlikely, reconquering rome was fairly low on their list of things to do and no matter how much you improve the reign of Basil II he is more likely to try for Syria, the Balkans, Sicily, basically the things they whent for OTL in this time period. Rome was never too important to the Byzantines and wasn't strategically worthwhile unless they deal with everything else first.
 
It may not be permanently gone but it is possible to have the Arabs do better in Italy to the point of conquering Rome which would for the moment end the papal state. Otherwise probably not, attacking the Papacy would be out of the question for the HRE given how much temporal power it held against the emperor.

didnt stop Charles from taking over the city, sacking half of it and making the pope a prisoner in the castello de san angelo before making him flee the city for nearly a year
 
didnt stop Charles from taking over the city, sacking half of it and making the pope a prisoner in the castello de san angelo before making him flee the city for nearly a year

That was only after years of papal incompetence and power plays thoroughly de-legitimised that particular pope and in a time where religion was less actively important in politics. This is when the pope is at the height of his power and influence.
 
I think it's very possible during one of the many burgher rebellions in Rome. When the Roman patricians rebelled against Papal rule, twice a Republic was established. The second time it was Savonarolesque populist republic that stood its ground and destroyed Tusculum, the Papal fortress in its way south to Naples.

So, make this SPQR stronger, and you'll have the Pope banished.

But of course, he'll flee somewhere else. You'll have the single Pope in Avignon, or in Köln, or in Ravenna, Benevento, Spoleto... maybe more Popes will pop out (bad pun, sorry) in Toledo, Tarragona, Esztergom or Bremen...
 
Technically, the Pope doesn't have to be expelled from Rome for this, but simply have his temporal power removed. In principle, the HRE or a Roman state could still recognize the Pope as both the Bishop of Rome and head of the church after his secular domains are taken.
 
A strong Salian HRE+Sicily Union will help by keeping the States to Latium as a starting point. From there it's possible to see the temporal powers of the Papacy subsumed by the much stronger HRE.
 
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