WI : Desperate Quest for a new Home (New Byzantine Homeland / Byzantine New World)

Love it! The only problems would be transportation (it would take numerous convoys of large ships to transport the population of Constantinople to the canary islands and where the population would live. While I agree that the Canaries could support a large population at the time there was no large settlement. So one would have to be built. Other then that it could work. With Papal support (likely considering John VIII and the Byzantine Church had recently, via the council of Ferrara-Florence, rejoined the Catholic Church) I can see the Byzantines gaining colonization rights of the Canaries from the Portuguese/Castillians and sending Engineers to start to build a new city/settlement, and once its better established a slow transportation of the populace across the med can begin.

With control of the Canaries the Byzantines would be in a good position to control the eventual trade between the Mediterranean and other parts of the world, being close to the (at the time) only sea route to the region. Hell as I think about it, depending on how the Byzantines are doing over the rest of the 1400s, we could see ATL Columbus/Columbus analogue sail under the Roman banner, giving the imperial remnant the initial, sole rights to the new world.

Now not to sound pushy but someone HAS to do a TL on this. It would be EPIC!
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
I like the idea of the Canaries islands plan, story flavor could add numerous strategic ways for them to flurish...

Good to know that someone likes it!

-Continue selling ornate relics and other espensive things from Byzantium. Even after moving to Canaria, I'd imagine anything that could be brought would be, and more could later be "liberated"(raided) to exacerbate the trade in luxory goods.

I agree that there would be efforts to try and bring whatever loyalists could, but I'd expect whoever controlled their old homes would be unwilling to allow a mass-depopulation, so whilst small groups of richer families may bring a boat-load, larger groups of them will have difficulty, and poor people will have a harder time still (let alone being able to afford the fare without Byzantine help).

Piracy is a brave option though, because without the right flags, or the protection of Castille and Aragon, any returning pirates will have to sail quite a long way, not that they couldn't, but eventually it'd force the Ottomans to deal with the issue. I'm torn on what their breaking point would be.

-Offering passage to Orthodox Greeks, and eventually all fleeing the Turks, on agreement for an indentured servitude deal

Passage to the Canaries? Free trips are interesting, but again, expensive - so that indentured servitude could be interesting - lots of rent-paying tenants, but I wonder if citizen armies would have to become a thing again, as there are no serfs that can be levied (perhaps that would be one contract of servitude).

-Close proximity to African gold trade

I took a look a this and it seems the Gold trade was primary responded to with salt - which means the Romans may end up being middlemen between Western European salt exporters, and West Africa. With France, Germany, England to name just those accessible without passing the straits of Gibraltar. Could be a powerful boost to the economy.

-Agriculture+ocean wildlife for food, along with native giant lizards which would be an interesting addition, and the island apparently had a high seal population

I think we can see the Imperial Menagerie already :p Seals would certainly help make waterproof clothing for the Romans too!

-The islands were however already inhabited, the only estimate I found is at 80000 people, so that may be an issue for the Rhomans. However, with these people also come dogs, pigs, sheep, goats, barley, wheat, and lentils, as well as some degree of infastructure and indigenous plant and geography knowledge.

It depends on the populations that can be extracted from the Morea, and Ottoman Greece - Estimated at roughly 4,500,000 - if even a fraction followed, say 1 in 45? (Admittedly 2% of the population leaving is a lot of people, but it would likely be gradual.) That would be 100,000 people, just from Greece. Anyone else who was particularly disinclined to pay the Jizya, or was convinced by Church leaders, there are a lot of populations to draw from, but it'd take one concerted effort to gather significant numbers. (For perspective England wouldn't exceed this population till the mid-1600s!)

-Would the Byzantines be able to bring along silk production? That could be a great trade boost.

Eh, it had declined by this point, still valuable, but the Italians were in the game at this point and had been for a long time. France IOTL even started their own in 1466, so whilst Silk might be good (it could be used to trade for West African gold, or other goods) - it isn't a great monopoly any more. Although it would certainly be an interesting trade good for England, and the only thing I've found on New World silk was in the 1640's. It could evolve to be of value - and I think the Mulberry trees might be able to survive the Canaries.

I think this would be a really fun timeline personally, especially if it is feasible for the Byzantines to assimilate the Guanches. Peaceful integration, despite being unlikely, would give them a starting population of 130,000 which would be quite a boost that could be constantly added to by importing indentured servants wishing to flee Turkish/Muslim lands (Or Hell, anywhere else if they were willing to work, convert, and learn greek)

As I mentioned above - there are more sources of people, but the Byzantines are going to have to learn to be tolerant - Gold, Silk and other trades are powerful lures to encourage immigration, but outright xenophobia and the out-of-the way nature of the Canaries would be a powerful disincentive until the Byzantines make the Canaries more important.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Love it! The only problems would be transportation (it would take numerous convoys of large ships to transport the population of Constantinople to the canary islands and where the population would live. While I agree that the Canaries could support a large population at the time there was no large settlement. So one would have to be built. Other then that it could work. With Papal support (likely considering John VIII and the Byzantine Church had recently, via the council of Ferrara-Florence, rejoined the Catholic Church) I can see the Byzantines gaining colonization rights of the Canaries from the Portuguese/Castillians and sending Engineers to start to build a new city/settlement, and once its better established a slow transportation of the populace across the med can begin.

With control of the Canaries the Byzantines would be in a good position to control the eventual trade between the Mediterranean and other parts of the world, being close to the (at the time) only sea route to the region. Hell as I think about it, depending on how the Byzantines are doing over the rest of the 1400s, we could see ATL Columbus/Columbus analogue sail under the Roman banner, giving the imperial remnant the initial, sole rights to the new world.

Now not to sound pushy but someone HAS to do a TL on this. It would be EPIC!

You posted as I was replying! (so double posts it is!)

It would certainly take a huge fleet, or many many trips for smaller ships, probably something worth investigating, either that or people would have to march through the Balkans, Italy, S.France and Spain to take a ship from Cadiz - one hell of a trek, which would need either great cruelty to push, or great wealth to pull, people towards the Byzantines.

Settlement, yeah - that'll be the difficult part (though who are greater city-builders than the Romans? Practice does make perfect), perhaps another use for the Gold trade would be to buy construction materials from W.Europe (especially England, wood and clay galore in Yorkshire) - the way I'm beginning to see this is that the Byzantines would form the naval middlemen that can move gold more cheaply than the Saharan caravans, and in greater volumes. This will undoubtably lure pirates - but if everyone in W.Europe is buying - then the Romans need only protect their local waters, as the Spanish, French and English can probably be negotiated with to prevent piracy so that they can buy gold. I dread to think of the inflation problems though, unless they are selling gold bullion.

Sadly there is a time limit before we start having to resort to piracy, 'rescue missions' and immigration - the Ottomans are coming, and whilst it seemed impossible to the world that Constantinople could fall, it likely will, even if fate gives them more time than 9 years. Even if selling the Morea (but not its people) gives them 100 ships, capable of carrying 50 people each - that would still be 10 round trips just for Constantinople!

Honestly - I expect 30,000 people would be optimistic within 3 years, and then they need to be able to trade, be able to build fleets and towns - and send ships back to pick up people. They couldn't all come from Constantinople without it beginning to resemble a ghost town, and so a goodly number would likely be from the Morea and Ottoman Greece, before selling the territory. By resorting to near-or-outright abduction, 100,000 within 9 years. If this was some evacuation deal with some European power, then it'll be entirely the new culture by this point.

You know that feeling when you write something out and you realise the scope, nuance, and feasibility of something (despite the prospective insanity of it) - currently having that.
 
Hm, maybe another Ottoman civil war could distract the Turks? After all they're not that rare, the one in the early 1400s lasted for about ten years. Or have the Malmuks and the Turks get into a war. Basically the Turks need to be forced to have their attention redirected to the east for a sustained period of time. If the Byzantines had enough time they could transport a significant amount of their population to the Canaries. While difficult I don't think this idea is impossible. It just takes a few imaginative changes.

As for transportation, I'll have to do some research on the various Mediterranean navies, but the Church might be able to force some of the various nations to aid in transporting the population to the Canaries. I think that between the Genoans, the Venetians, the Neapolitans and the Argonese the Papacy and the Byzantines should be able to put together a sizable fleet. Thinking about it, the Byzantines could also mortgage parts of the Morea as a way to get money for the time being, putting up Constantinople after they have set up settlements on the Canaries.

By the time the Turks are able to turn their attention back to the west, the Byzantines could have a significant settlement set up. After all the Spanish were able to set up significant settlements in the Caribbean within a few decades so creating a colony on the Canaries, close to Europe, within a decade seems feasible.
 
Hm, maybe another Ottoman civil war could distract the Turks? After all they're not that rare, the one in the early 1400s lasted for about ten years.

There is never enough Ottoman civil wars!

On topic, I love the premise, regardless of where they go. All of Ethiopia, Horn and Africa and Canaries options sound awesome!
 
I think the best initial course for the Byzantines should be a negotiated peace with Ottomans: Constantine XI will cede them Constantinople if the Turks will allow them to evacuate in Morea. Peloponnese will be a more suitable territory to recovery and reorganize, at condition to stay under Venetian protection. A Byzantine state in Morea would be the ideal to reorganize. Mystra and Patrasso will bloom in the meanwhile thanks to the Mediterranean traffics.

Decades later, the new world is discovered, and in Mystra grows the intention to seek fortune over the Atlantic to escape from the Ottoman constant menace. I guess the Byzantines as mercenaries and reinvented as skilled sailors would gain the Spanish support. Philip II would eventually help them to give naval accesses to Spanish harbours, and the Byzantines around 1550, focusing over the North American Atlantic coast. And the Byzantine explorators will reach a certain island on the mouth of Hudson river, they will buy it from the locals, and found the outpost of New Costantinople.

After the victory of Lepanto, Byzantine Morea will have some time still but the Eastern Emperors realized soon or later their land will fall and they started to organize New Constantinople as the capital of a stable, small state in exile. The evacuation would be definitive during the 30YW, as Western Europe cannot protect anymore Morea. Mystra will be burned down and flocks of Byzantines will escape from Patras. And New Byzanntium will be an effective reality.

Mine would be a more slow building TL but probably not excessively ASB.
 
Here's a few options that I see for Byzantine colonization............................

(1) Macaronesia = Mineral poor. but good farmland and bordering the Caribbean which makes the islands more desirable.

(2) Madagascar/Mascarenes= Closer to get to, not as tropical as mainland Africa and an entry way to the Indian Ocean. Actually, this sounds like a good plan. Colonize Madagascar and the Mascarenes, build up numbers and ships, then enter the Indian Ocean and discover Oceania ahead of Columbus which brings us to------------

(3) Oceania= Definitely a long shot but if they have the numbers,tech and willpower maybe they can get a leg up on an early Spice Trade.
 

GdwnsnHo

Banned
Hm, maybe another Ottoman civil war could distract the Turks? After all they're not that rare, the one in the early 1400s lasted for about ten years. Or have the Malmuks and the Turks get into a war. Basically the Turks need to be forced to have their attention redirected to the east for a sustained period of time. If the Byzantines had enough time they could transport a significant amount of their population to the Canaries. While difficult I don't think this idea is impossible. It just takes a few imaginative changes.

Personally I like the idea them getting embroiled in a war with the Ag Qoyunlu or Qara Qoyunlu, after either of them unite - it would a big war, and bring the Ottomans to the edge of Persia - the logistics alone would costly if on the offensive, and the damage caused would be awful if forced on the defensive. An alternative is that Murad II stays on the throne, and Mehmet II then rebels against him in impatience.

As for transportation, I'll have to do some research on the various Mediterranean navies, but the Church might be able to force some of the various nations to aid in transporting the population to the Canaries. I think that between the Genoans, the Venetians, the Neapolitans and the Argonese the Papacy and the Byzantines should be able to put together a sizable fleet. Thinking about it, the Byzantines could also mortgage parts of the Morea as a way to get money for the time being, putting up Constantinople after they have set up settlements on the Canaries.

That is a pretty cool way to manage the financial aspects of it, and that would be an impressive fleet to see. I could see some sailors deciding to stick around in the new Roman Canaries.

By the time the Turks are able to turn their attention back to the west, the Byzantines could have a significant settlement set up. After all the Spanish were able to set up significant settlements in the Caribbean within a few decades so creating a colony on the Canaries, close to Europe, within a decade seems feasible.

Many of those difficulties were trying to get people to colonise - if they were near abducted/convinced by every authority to go so that they wouldn't be conquered, then I think you'd see one turn up substantially faster, it just wouldn't be particularly luxurious.

There is never enough Ottoman civil wars!

On topic, I love the premise, regardless of where they go. All of Ethiopia, Horn and Africa and Canaries options sound awesome!

:D

I think the best initial course for the Byzantines should be a negotiated peace with Ottomans: Constantine XI will cede them Constantinople if the Turks will allow them to evacuate in Morea. Peloponnese will be a more suitable territory to recovery and reorganize, at condition to stay under Venetian protection. A Byzantine state in Morea would be the ideal to reorganize. Mystra and Patrasso will bloom in the meanwhile thanks to the Mediterranean traffics.

My main problem with this is that Mehmet II invaded the Morea not long after - I can't see a peaceful evacuation of Constantinople preventing a war for the Morea. It doesn't make sense for someone as aggressive as Mehmet.

Decades later, the new world is discovered, and in Mystra grows the intention to seek fortune over the Atlantic to escape from the Ottoman constant menace. I guess the Byzantines as mercenaries and reinvented as skilled sailors would gain the Spanish support. Philip II would eventually help them to give naval accesses to Spanish harbours, and the Byzantines around 1550, focusing over the North American Atlantic coast. And the Byzantine explorators will reach a certain island on the mouth of Hudson river, they will buy it from the locals, and found the outpost of New Costantinople.

I do like this - but the Byzantines will need to have had some strong protectors between 1453 and when the new world is discovered and exploited.

After the victory of Lepanto, Byzantine Morea will have some time still but the Eastern Emperors realized soon or later their land will fall and they started to organize New Constantinople as the capital of a stable, small state in exile. The evacuation would be definitive during the 30YW, as Western Europe cannot protect anymore Morea. Mystra will be burned down and flocks of Byzantines will escape from Patras. And New Byzanntium will be an effective reality.

Mine would be a more slow building TL but probably not excessively ASB.

I really like the idea - but it'll need a Mehmet II who is less aggressive. A distraction might be best - but if there is a distraction, when why would Constantinople need to be left?

Here's a few options that I see for Byzantine colonization............................

Yay! More the merrier

(1) Macaronesia = Mineral poor. but good farmland and bordering the Caribbean which makes the islands more desirable.

Similar if larger idea to what is planned - the issue would be whether or not the Byzantines would have the money to buy all these islands. Plus, Portugal is much more interested in exploration than the Spanish, and would prize the Azores more than the Spanish the possibility of owning the Canaries.

(2) Madagascar/Mascarenes= Closer to get to, not as tropical as mainland Africa and an entry way to the Indian Ocean. Actually, this sounds like a good plan. Colonize Madagascar and the Mascarenes, build up numbers and ships, then enter the Indian Ocean and discover Oceania ahead of Columbus which brings us to------------

Not viable as an initial option, IMO, due to the difficulties of getting through Egypt. If they left via the Straits of Gibraltar How on earth did they get that far without sinking?

(3) Oceania= Definitely a long shot but if they have the numbers,tech and willpower maybe they can get a leg up on an early Spice Trade.

Fun idea - but I can't see them getting remotely this far in the short term - a fun long term idea though.
 
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