WI: Denmark joins the central powers and take baltic territories.

[Gukpard]

On the XIII until the XVII centuries AD the Kingdom of Denmark controlled parts of the baltic, as it can be check on this map. Since Denmark became a very peacefull country after the war with Prussia I believe that a 19th century PoD is more realistic for the situation. Let's say that after the Holstein war the Danes keep their highly nationalistic policies, and when Wilhelm II comes to power and refuses to sign the insurance treaty with Russia, Denmark begins to approach Germany, to the poin that they join the central powers somewhere in 1915/16 (maybe after the fall of Serbia). Can they hope to Get Estonia, and maybe Latvia on Brest Litovsky too?

 

[Atterdag]

Germany didn't award territory to it's other allies in Brest-Litovsk, not even Austiria-Hungary and Denmark can't contribiute nearly as much as them.

*However* if Germany somehow manages to keep control of the Baltics post ww1, maybe a dane could gain the throne of Estonia. That's a huge stretch aswell though, since Estonia was recognized as an independent republic by Germany.

 

[ArchimedesCircle]

Germany didn't award territory to it's other allies in Brest-Litovsk, not even Austiria-Hungary and Denmark can't contribiute nearly as much as them.

Is there a specific reason that Austria-Hungary didn't get anything? Did they not want additional territory or did Germany just not care for their ally?

Also this should go in post-1900.

 

[stevej713]

Also this should go in post-1900.

He's asking what could happen before the 20th century to make Denmark more nationalistic in the World Wars.

If you're looking for a 19th century PoD, I think you'd need to break Prussia permanently in the Napoleonic Wars. Denmark's pacifism was the result of bordering a country with a vastly superior military. However, doing that would butterfly away the World Wars entirely.

 

[Atterdag]

Is there a specific reason that Austria-Hungary didn't get anything? Did they not want additional territory or did Germany just not care for their ally?

Also this should go in post-1900.

I'm no expert but I think it's a combination of the fact that Austria was barely able to govern itself and was almost Germany's vassal at that point.

But more than that Brest-Litovsk was more about liberating nations under Russia's influence, officially atleast.

 

[WunWun]

I doubt the Danish could bring enough to the table from a military standpoint for the Germans to even care. Strategically they are nice, controlling the entrance to the baltic. I only see them as part of the central powers in case they were really closely aligned to germany, in a sort of autonomous state as part of the empire. And even if they were part of the CP, the germans would probably take the baltics for themselves. The baltic germans living there are a far better claim than Late Middle Ages/Ancien regime possessions.

iirc, ouvertures were made to Sweden for them to join the central powers. They maybe could receive the baltics+Finland, and if you're really wanking it, St Petersburg and the Neva, together with Karelia too.

 

[Atterdag]

I doubt the Danish could bring enough to the table from a military standpoint for the Germans to even care. Strategically they are nice, controlling the entrance to the baltic. I only see them as part of the central powers in case they were really closely aligned to germany, in a sort of autonomous state as part of the empire. And even if they were part of the CP, the germans would probably take the baltics for themselves. The baltic germans living there are a far better claim than Late Middle Ages/Ancien regime possessions.

iirc, ouvertures were made to Sweden for them to join the central powers. They maybe could receive the baltics+Finland, and if you're really wanking it, St Petersburg and the Neva, together with Karelia too.

Sweden was on the verge of starvation and revolution just having the army on standby, they're in no position to conquer and supress rebellions in new territories. They could probably get Åland and maybe *maybe* some of swedish-majority cities (think Italy with Trieste and Split). All this is assuming a German victory though.

 

[SpicyJuan]

Anyone know how many divisions Denmark could mobilize and field? Might make an important difference at Verdun.

 

[arctic warrior]

Anyone know how many divisions Denmark could mobilize and field? Might make an important difference at Verdun.

Some five were mobilized though initially only three for the defence of Copenhagen and a brigade in Jutland. Heavy artillery were lacking.

A POD post WWI could be more interesting as Denmark had a volunteer company operating in Estonia and Latvia during May to September 1919. The original plan was to raise a corps of some 1000 men but only 200 were willing to go.
Royal Navy units based at Copenhagen kept the Red Navy locked up in the Finn Bay making room for manouevre.
So a more gung-ho Danish effort might achieve something in the Baltic.

 

[Atterdag]

Anyone know how many divisions Denmark could mobilize and field? Might make an important difference at Verdun.

Theoretically about 90000 men, though logistically Denmark would probably not have been able to field that many. IOTL it barely managed to keep the 50000 mobilized supplied.

I don't exactly know why Denmark would send it's soldiers to Verdun. Most of the army would probably be stationed in Jutland to counteract a possible british invasion.

 

[Jürgen]

Honestly for Denmark to join the CP, the Entente need to do something incredible stupid against Denmark.

 

[Gukpard]

Honestly for Denmark to join the CP, the Entente need to do something incredible stupid against Denmark.

That is why the PoD is the 19th century, the idea is that for some unspecified reason the Danish nationalist didn't collapsed and they remained open to grab new land.

Some five were mobilized though initially only three for the defence of Copenhagen and a brigade in Jutland. Heavy artillery were lacking.

Theoretically about 90000 men, though logistically Denmark would probably not have been able to field that many. IOTL it barely managed to keep the 50000 mobilized supplied.

I don't exactly know why Denmark would send it's soldiers to Verdun. Most of the army would probably be stationed in Jutland to counteract a possible british invasion.

Consider that Germany proposes to arm the Danish army with everything they could spare, If Denmark has all the equipment they ask for Berlin, how much soldiers they can arm?

 

[Ivan Lupo]

I can imagine a scenario where Denmark ends up allied with Prussia, so long as they don't end up going to war first over Schleswig-Holstein. A lot needs to happen after that, because that war led to the Austro-Prussian war that laid the foundation for the Franco-Prussian War and then eventual German unification. I'm not sure what Prussia, or later on, possibly Germany, could offer Denmark to induce an alliance, short of ensuring Denmark they will help them regain ancestral lands they had lost to Sweden. Later on, Germany could possibly offer colonies instead, but would Denmark even be able to effectively run a colony, as in, at all?

Perhaps at some point after the Napoleonic Wars, Prussia would have started assisting the Scandinavian countries in some way, like helping them modernize.

 

[Atterdag]

That is why the PoD is the 19th century, the idea is that for some unspecified reason the Danish nationalist didn't collapsed and they remained open to grab new land.





Consider that Germany proposes to arm the Danish army with everything they could spare, If Denmark has all the equipment they ask for Berlin, how much soldiers they can arm?

Hard to say, the official army size was around 90000 but if they had all the equipmemt they wanted maybe more. Did Germany have that capability though? Or will it just exhaust their resources faster.

Again I'm not sure if Denmark would send soldiers to the western front. They have nothing to gain there and aren't exactly threathened by France.

 

[Atterdag]

I can imagine a scenario where Denmark ends up allied with Prussia, so long as they don't end up going to war first over Schleswig-Holstein. A lot needs to happen after that, because that war led to the Austro-Prussian war that laid the foundation for the Franco-Prussian War and then eventual German unification. I'm not sure what Prussia, or later on, possibly Germany, could offer Denmark to induce an alliance, short of ensuring Denmark they will help them regain ancestral lands they had lost to Sweden. Later on, Germany could possibly offer colonies instead, but would Denmark even be able to effectively run a colony, as in, at all?

Perhaps at some point after the Napoleonic Wars, Prussia would have started assisting the Scandinavian countries in some way, like helping them modernize.

How do you avoid a war for Schleswig-Holstein? The area has been hotly contested by Denmark and Germany since the middle ages and will need to be thoroughly settled before either side give up their claim on it.

 

[Atterdag]

Honestly for Denmark to join the CP, the Entente need to do something incredible stupid against Denmark.

Bombard Copenhagen? Worked in 1807

 

[Milites]

You're essentially asking three things: 1) how can Denmark maintain an aggressive/irredentist 'national spirit' 2) how can Denmark ally Germany/Prussia in relation to WW1? 3) could Denmark obtain territorial gains in Estonia/Livonia at Brest-Litovsk thanks to said alliance.

1. Danish nationalism as it originated in the 1800s was closely tied to the protection/enshrinement of the Danish language as a contrast to the 'evil southern boogyman' in Germany. Case in point being the continued dispute over the affiliation of the duchies of Schleswig and Holstein. After being brutally curb-stomped in the Second Schleswig War, Denmark, in not so many words, looked inwards and accepted the role of a peripheral state with a limited foreign policy scope. If you keep Denmark from losing said war nationalism could remain a powerful force, but it would still be directed south and not east across the Baltic.
2. Some secret back-door negotiations were conducted between Denmark and Germany between 1906 and 1907 about some form of border adjustment in Schleswig if the Danes committed to supporting the Germans in the advent of a great power war. Whether or not such a deal would have had the support of parliament, let alone the general populace, is another matter entirely. At the turn of the 19th century, Denmark was committed to a policy of neutrality, enhanced by a moderately strong defence policy. Unless Denmark and Germany come to some kind of accommodation regarding the Schleswig question, I don't think a rapprochement and eventual formal alliance is all that plausible.
3. No. And they wouldn't want to. Neither would the Germans hand them over when the Baltic German nobility offered the Kaiser the crown of the UBD.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

How do you avoid a war for Schleswig-Holstein? The area has been hotly contested by Denmark and Germany since the middle ages and will need to be thoroughly settled before either side give up their claim on it.

I honestly don't see many clear cut ways to actually avoid that war, short of Denmark accepting a massive payout for the German-majority portions, and that wouldn't be enough. The issue over Schleswig-Holstein and the eventual war kicked the German unification process into overdrive. The POD to tie Denmark to Prussia, and eventually Germany, would have to be far sooner. The Treaty of Kiel saw Norway taken from the Danish crown and ceded to Sweden, and there were a lot of other deals that eventually saw both Danish and Swedish claims to Swedish Pomerania renounced and the territory given to Prussia instead. Denmark got a raw deal here in a way because they were trying to maintain neutrality during the Napoleonic Wars, but the British bombing of Copenhagen drove them into Napoleon's orbit, while Sweden had already allied herself with the British. If this doesn't happen and the Danes maintain their neutrality, combined with Prussia refusing to allow the rest of the allies to take Norway and grant it to Sweden, this could be the start of partnership between Prussia and Denmark-Norway that could lead to a more peaceful deal between the two regarding Schleswig-Holstein. Who knows if that butterfly ends up affecting World War I, but an eventual German-Danish alliance is a problem for Britain, especially since it means the Germans could easily gain access to the North Sea, especially if Denmark grants Prussia/Germany a Norwegian port or two.

Edit: Another thing I left out. Let's say Denmark-Norway continues on with Denmark remaining as the senior partner. Norway would undoubtedly get caught up in the romantic nationalism of the time and could stage a revolution against Denmark at some point. Prussia can't simply help Denmark crush the independence movement here and help itself to territory, not without British involvement. It's different when Austria and Prussia are crushing these movements throughout Central Europe, but an entirely different matter when it happens just behind Britain's backyard.

 

[Gukpard]

Did Germany have that capability though? Or will it just exhaust their resources faster.

They have, they equiped a lot of the ottoman army, however the problem is that the longer Denmark takes to join the war, the harder it will be for Germany to spread their resources to supply their troops.

 

[Bastiram]

You can make a reasonable argument on how to avoid Schleswig-Holstein nationalism divided between Denmark and Germany, requires an earlier PoD though.

But essentially after Denmark lost Norway. The economic center of Holstein moved from the East/North East to the south around Hamburg.

The result of this shift is that the population of Holstein started to align itself more with the German confederacy than Denmark /Helstaten (Helstaten is a term for The kingdom + the duchies)

Without this economic change, you might see a quite different nationalism going on in Schleswig-Holstein.

Already OTL German nationalism took longer to present itself in the German population of Schleswig-Holstein than it did other places.