WI: Denisovans Migrate to the Americas

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

1) Denisovans are a extinct species of Archaic human whose historical range lied between Siberia and Southeast Asia.

Denisovan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2) Denisovans were once the same species as Neanderthals, but broke off from Neanderthals about 400,000 years ago according to scientists. Denisovans are thought to have gone extinct about 30,000 years ago.

3) The Bering Land Bridge was a land mass that was uncovered by the last Ice Age, which lowered the Sea level and allowed land to connect North America with Northeast Asia. This land bridge disappeared at the end of the Ice Age about 11,000 years ago.

4) My question is, what if Denisovans not only migrated to and settled the Americas say 40,000-50,000 years ago, but also fought off migrating Homo Sapiens that crossed the land bridge otl, at least enough to either cause the small amount of Homo Sapiens that did cross to die out or assimilate into the Denisovan gene pool?

- What do we know about Denisovans that would allow us to guess how their species would progress in a isolated environment?

- Can it be assumed that this pod would have no butterflies on Europe, Africa, and Asia up until 1492 (idk if the Vikings would matter since they didn't otl)?

- When Columbus comes around in 1492, what the hell happens when modern humans realize they share the planet with a whole different sentient humanoid species?

 

[TheBalkanizer]

I'm pretty sure this should be in the ASB forum.

 

[Jürgen]

1) Denisovans are a extinct species of Archaic human whose historical range lied between Siberia and Southeast Asia.

Denisovan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2) Denisovans were once the same species as Neanderthals, but broke off from Neanderthals about 400,000 years ago according to scientists. Denisovans are thought to have gone extinct about 30,000 years ago.

3) The Bering Land Bridge was a land mass that was uncovered by the last Ice Age, which lowered the Sea level and allowed land to connect North America with Northeast Asia. This land bridge disappeared at the end of the Ice Age about 11,000 years ago.

4) My question is, what if Denisovans not only migrated to and settled the Americas say 40,000-50,000 years ago, but also fought off migrating Homo Sapiens that crossed the land bridge otl, at least enough to either cause the small amount of Homo Sapiens that did cross to die out or assimilate into the Denisovan gene pool?

- What do we know about Denisovans that would allow us to guess how their species would progress in a isolated environment?

- Can it be assumed that this pod would have no butterflies on Europe, Africa, and Asia up until 1492 (idk if the Vikings would matter since they didn't otl)?

- When Columbus comes around in 1492, what the hell happens when modern humans realize they share the planet with a whole different sentient humanoid species?

Even if they didn't fight off the migrating modern humans, it would still be a interesting timeline as there's a good chance a lot of megafauna would survive, but also that remnant Denisovan population would surive into historical times (or in isolated location even survive) and hybridization would help Native American adapt faster and give them a bigger gene pool making them better able to deal with Eurasian epidemics (resulting in a population losses as low as 1/3-1/2 instead of 9/10 to 19/20).

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

I'm pretty sure this should be in the ASB forum.

There's nothing ASB about this. Denisovans lived in Siberia in otl.

It'd only take a slight pod to get some of them to migrate northeast into Alaska instead of Southeast like otl.

Not exactly easy, but certainly by no means impossible.

 

[AltoRegnant]

Even if they didn't fight off the migrating modern humans, it would still be a interesting timeline as there's a good chance a lot of megafauna would survive, but also that remnant Denisovan population would surive into historical times (or in isolated location even survive) and hybridization would help Native American adapt faster and give them a bigger gene pool making them better able to deal with Eurasian epidemics (resulting in a population losses as low as 1/3-1/2 instead of 9/10 to 19/20).

would 30,000 year old crossbreeding really help, though? That's 20k years before early agriculture, and smallpox is estimated to have emerged sometime after that, let alone the other major problems. Granted, you'd likely see more natives and thus a reduced percentage dead, but I don't think this is gonna stunt the colonial pandemics that much

 

[Jürgen]

would 30,000 year old crossbreeding really help, though? That's 20k years before early agriculture, and smallpox is estimated to have emerged sometime after that, let alone the other major problems. Granted, you'd likely see more natives and thus a reduced percentage dead, but I don't think this is gonna stunt the colonial pandemics that much

One of the major problem for Native Americans was that they had a massive population bottleneck which gave them little genetic diversity, low genetic diversity results in epidemics being truly destructive. Hybridisation will create a far more diverse population even if the vast majority of their genes comes from the bottlenecked population. We know hybridisation with Neanderthal was likely a major reason for our ability to leave Africa and settle Eurasia and large part of the Neanderthal genes surviving in us is for immune system.

 

[TheBalkanizer]

There's nothing ASB about this. Denisovans lived in Siberia in otl.

It'd only take a slight pod to get some of them to migrate northeast into Alaska instead of Southeast like otl.

Not exactly easy, but certainly by no means impossible.

I was under the impression that any Geological/Evolutionary pods were automatically sent to the ASB forum

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

I was under the impression that any Geological/Evolutionary pods were automatically sent to the ASB forum

The atl migration of the Denisovans is not a evolutionary pod. We're not charging their genetic makeup, were just altering their historical society.

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

One of the major problem for Native Americans was that they had a massive population bottleneck which gave them little genetic diversity, low genetic diversity results in epidemics being truly destructive. Hybridisation will create a far more diverse population even if the vast majority of their genes comes from the bottlenecked population. We know hybridisation with Neanderthal was likely a major reason for our ability to leave Africa and settle Eurasia and large part of the Neanderthal genes surviving in us is for immune system.

It's actually theorized by some that Denisovans helped Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens develop the ability to breathe in high altitude locations.

 

[Jürgen]

It's actually theorized by some that Denisovans helped Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens develop the ability to breathe in high altitude locations.

The genes which allow Tibetans to live in high altitudes comes from a one branch[1] of Denisovans.

[1]@Umbral have a great thread on human genetics and cover the different branches of Denisovans.

 

[kholieken]

- Denisovans in America spread, but their genetic pool would be very small and affected by founder effect
-
- there would be periodic invasions from Siberians homo sapiens
- in 1492 Spain would found "wilderness" with some animals clever enough to use tools. While hindered by lack of natives and native corps to conquer, Europeans would wipe out all Denisovans

 

[Jürgen]

- Denisovans in America spread, but their genetic pool would be very small and affected by founder effect
-
- there would be periodic invasions from Siberians homo sapiens
- in 1492 Spain would found "wilderness" with some animals clever enough to use tools. While hindered by lack of natives and native corps to conquer, Europeans would wipe out all Denisovans

Denisovans was likely as smart as modern humans, the primary difference would be that common definition of human would be broader and the human race would have greater diversity.

 

[Jürgen]

A important aspect is that if the Denisovans as I think they would develop agriculture, we will see selection pressure which push them toward the same adaption as other agricultural people have made, smaller teeth, less pronounced brow bone, smaller temporalis, masseter and buccinator muscles, adaption toward stamina over strength.

 

[kholieken]

Denisovans was likely as smart as modern humans, the primary difference would be that common definition of human would be broader and the human race would have greater diversity.

But they will LOOK very different. and that will matter a lot. They likely will be exterminated before anyone realize they are "humans".

and they likely is hunter-gatherer, that what humans do in most of their history, farming is only very limited invention.
even if they develop some sort of Agriculture, Spanish would not recognize it

 

[GuildedAgeNostalgia]

But they will LOOK very different. and that will matter a lot. They likely will be exterminated before anyone realize they are "humans".

and they likely is hunter-gatherer, that what humans do in most of their history, farming is only very limited invention.
even if they develop some sort of Agriculture, Spanish would not recognize it

I think this is a very cynical, worst case scenario way of thinking.

Although probably considered subhuman, they're not going to be treated as if they're animals or non human. Denisovan society and behavior would be advanced enough that Spanish explorers would understand they're people.

Now, assuming they don't have immunity to European diseases, they probably share a similar fate to the otl indigenous people of South and Central America.

- They are conquered.
- They are enslaved for labor.
- The Catholic Church eventually steps in to protect them.

The main difference between this scenario and otl is that there is going to be a vastly different racial caste system in the Spanish Colonies and Denisovans won't be intermixing with the Creole population to the same extent that otl's Native Americans did.

 

[tus3]

But they will LOOK very different. and that will matter a lot. They likely will be exterminated before anyone realize they are "humans".

Some Spanish even doubted OTL American natives or Sub-Saharan Africans had souls. I don't think they will be treated any different. Except if it turns out the Denisovans are less intelligent/social.

A important aspect is that if the Denisovans as I think they would develop agriculture,

I recall having read somewhere that when agriculture developed in the Middle-East the hunter-gatherers had not yet reached the tip of South-America. So if the Denisovans arrive earlier than OTL humans we could see even earlier agriculture. Add in more surviving megafauna as you speculated, and maybe we could have the Americas be as developed as the Old World by contact.
That is, if the Denisovans are capable of inventing agriculture.

Another thing, what about the Polynesians? They likely reached South America OTL. Would anything like that have different effects in this timeline?

 

[Optical_Illusion]

Hmm... If the Denies get there 50 kya then I'd be asking if they brought their disease pool with them, and whether they have more time to get zoonotic diseases from the local fauna.

So even if they were replaced by a later modern human wave, I wouldn't expect their ancestry to hugely contribute to later Homo Sapiens moving into the Americas - though there could be some. But, we might find that they form a separate disease pool, and that they bequeath both diseases and genetic variants giving extra robusticity against those diseases to Homo Sapiens migrants. That might make the human population history of the Americas a bit more like Eurasia where population growth is a bit more frustrated by epidemic disease, but also diseases are more a two-way street if later groups "discover" the Americas as in OTL.

In OTL a Denisovan population (and really there seem to be many of them with splits in ancestry at least as deep as between the most deep splitting African lineages in Homo Sapiens today) seem to have given a lot of epidemic disease resistance genes to people in Australasia.

The earlier the PoD to get to the Americas, the deeper the disease resistence potential.

Set against this though, we have to ask why the Denisovans didn't do this in OTL... Even though they gave genes to some present day humans in East and North Asia providing adapation to cold.

 

[Kerney]

Okay, if the Mods move it ASB or not is not important.

Denisovans could, assuming they're towards the upper estimates of their intelligence. Everything here is based on that assumption because a lot of other posters are covering the lower end of estimations.

They would probably assimilate the NA who came in. The "founder' population of NA's probably numbered around seventy. If they are instead of facing a virgin field of tasty mammoths and ground sloths they are facing thousands of Denisovans, the small population loses. Two other waves came later but the first wave is so small it doesn't spread.

They still devastate the Megafauna, though probably more slowly because their base hunting technology is not as good. On the other hand, the critters, don't know to be afraid of those hairless apes. I would say perhaps a few more survivors on the edges. Mammoths are hard to hide and breed slowly so I think they're doomed. On the other hand, maybe some camels and horses make it. If they get the idea that they can tame horses, they might hunt buffalo out before the modern age or create a nomad herder culture rather than a horse hunter culture.

Agriculture, let's assume it's possible, probably leads to smaller populations in compared to Sapiens. A Neanderthal took around 4000 calories to sustain vs a Sapien's 2000. Denisovans are probably closer to Neanderthal. Still, pretty big and leads to some technological advancement. You could have very different settlement patterns as more marginal lands are brought into production. This also dovetails with the idea that Neanderthals preferred smaller bands. So perhaps many smaller settlements and fewer cities.

Perhaps, the higher calorie needs prevents settlement in the high arctic. Maybe that means either the Innuit/Dorset get set up as otl or if prevented, keeps them from settling in Greenland, leading to the Norse having better odds of staying. Also, if it's Norse vs Newfoundland Denisovans, then what?

When Sapiens, either Norse or Spanish get there, they come in. But the wealth is less concentrated, with fewer big paydays like the Aztec and the Inca were otl. Maybe that means slower settlement. If the Denisovans have any unique diseases from tamed camels or something, the devastations could go both ways, with Sapiens, with the higher population concentrations suffering more. This might be enough for there to be surviving Denisovan states or statelets.

Assuming if that's not the case and Sapiens come in and conquer and enslave, Denisovans might hold out in places like the Andes and Rockies and they might be where there are high populations like otl New Mexico and Arizona. This is assuming the adaptations to high altitude that modern Tibetans got from Denisovans are part of the NA Denisovans genetic package. Being able to breathe better than the Sapien competition is useful. Here they could still hold out to modern times.

 

[Glory2Cabinda]

- Denisovans in America spread, but their genetic pool would be very small and affected by founder effect
-
- there would be periodic invasions from Siberians homo sapiens
- in 1492 Spain would found "wilderness" with some animals clever enough to use tools. While hindered by lack of natives and native corps to conquer, Europeans would wipe out all Denisovans

Denosovians were at human level. They would probably be able to devolpe civilization.

 

[Gloss]

One of the major problem for Native Americans was that they had a massive population bottleneck which gave them little genetic diversity, low genetic diversity results in epidemics being truly destructive. Hybridisation will create a far more diverse population even if the vast majority of their genes comes from the bottlenecked population. We know hybridisation with Neanderthal was likely a major reason for our ability to leave Africa and settle Eurasia and large part of the Neanderthal genes surviving in us is for immune system.

I don't think this is true at all, in fact our Neanderthal genes are overrepresented in the non-coding regions exactly because it seems that we both developed systems that rely on multiple genes working together that were disrupted by mixing with Neanderthals, thus Eurasians had to select against those Neanderthal genes at least in the regulatory regions.
Also we can safely disregard the idea that diseases would be that much weaker by just looking at how populations that had more archaic ancestry like Australians or Polynesians reacted to Eurasian diseases. 1/3 is certainly too low, as always I like to point out that places in Europe certainly lost more from in 50 years from the Black death and subsequent waves.
I wonder how much ancestry the Denisovans would really leave as well, especially considering that the Siberian newcomers would experience a population explosion and thus divide in many different populations before they admix with Denisovans in the south.

That might make the human population history of the Americas a bit more like Eurasia where population growth is a bit more frustrated by epidemic disease, but also diseases are more a two-way street if later groups "discover" the Americas as in OTL.

In OTL a Denisovan population (and really there seem to be many of them with splits in ancestry at least as deep as between the most deep splitting African lineages in Homo Sapiens today) seem to have given a lot of epidemic disease resistance genes to people in Australasia.

Why didn't this happen OTL with Australians and Europeans then?