WI:Democracy, Big Government, and Nationalism after a CSA victory

I'm interested in the global political ramifications that a CSA victory could have. As I've read much before many fighting for the union during the ACW thought that they wore fighting for the image of democracy itself and as Lincoln said in his Gettysburg address the war was to make sure "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

As I've read from other source most other countries where heading fro forms of oligarchy and if the Union had not succeeded in reincorporating the southern states then modern democratic governments like those now in Europe would not have been so prevalent.

Also I personally spoke with one historian on the effects that an independent CSA might have on things like the Canadian Confederation and he said that such an event may convince inhabitants of British north America to remain independent. This then makes me wonder about the unification of other countries that occurred after the ACW in OTL such as Germany.

So I'd like to open this thread to discuss the extremes that may occur in ATLs in regards to the global effects an independent CSA may have on the general opinions held of democracy, nationalism, and large/centralized governemnts.
 

katchen

Banned
To put the CSA in perspective, it wasn't as though the Confederates were the only secessionists in the Western Hemisphere. The Central American states seceded from Mexico in 1820, Uruguay successfully seceded from Brazil in I believe 1824. Both Venezuela and Ecuador seceded from Gran Colombia. Bolivia seceded from Peru. And lastly, in the late 1850s, Santo Domingo (Dominican Republic) seceded from Haiti and wanted to be annexed to the United States. Not to mention Tejas seceding from Mexico. So in the Western Hemisphere, there are plenty of secessionary movements that succeeded. And in the Eastern Hemisphere, Greece and Egypt from the Ottoman Empire.
I think the reaction from much of the Western world would be a collective shrug.
We would see big time effects on the rest of the US from a Confederate secession. The US had to make HUGE compromises on the idea of inequality because the South was kept in the Union. If the South was no longer part of the United States, those compromises would not happen. We would see more and sooner recognition of labour unions and the right to strike, as occurred in Canada, Australia and Europe. No compromise would be made denying the right of workers to join unions, even farm workers. Taft-Hartley Act would not pass in this TL.
 
I'm interested in the global political ramifications that a CSA victory could have. As I've read much before many fighting for the union during the ACW thought that they wore fighting for the image of democracy itself and as Lincoln said in his Gettysburg address the war was to make sure "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."

As I've read from other source most other countries where heading fro forms of oligarchy and if the Union had not succeeded in reincorporating the southern states then modern democratic governments like those now in Europe would not have been so prevalent.

Also I personally spoke with one historian on the effects that an independent CSA might have on things like the Canadian Confederation and he said that such an event may convince inhabitants of British north America to remain independent. This then makes me wonder about the unification of other countries that occurred after the ACW in OTL such as Germany.

So I'd like to open this thread to discuss the extremes that may occur in ATLs in regards to the global effects an independent CSA may have on the general opinions held of democracy, nationalism, and large/centralized governemnts.

The late Robert Fogel in *Without Consent or Contract* argued that acceptance of secession would have bad consequences for democracy worldwide (and in the United States--which, remember, would still have some slave states). For a summary of his arguments, see https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/N6tuamvgjnE/Dbk0vvXvLmsJ
 
To put the CSA in perspective, it wasn't as though the Confederates were the only secessionists in the Western Hemisphere. The Central American states seceded from Mexico in 1820, Uruguay successfully seceded from Brazil in I believe 1824. Both Venezuela and Ecuador seceded from Gran Colombia. Bolivia seceded from Peru. And lastly, in the late 1850s, Santo Domingo (Dominican Republic) seceded from Haiti and wanted to be annexed to the United States. Not to mention Tejas seceding from Mexico. So in the Western Hemisphere, there are plenty of secessionary movements that succeeded. And in the Eastern Hemisphere, Greece and Egypt from the Ottoman Empire.
I think the reaction from much of the Western world would be a collective shrug.
We would see big time effects on the rest of the US from a Confederate secession. The US had to make HUGE compromises on the idea of inequality because the South was kept in the Union. If the South was no longer part of the United States, those compromises would not happen. We would see more and sooner recognition of labour unions and the right to strike, as occurred in Canada, Australia and Europe. No compromise would be made denying the right of workers to join unions, even farm workers. Taft-Hartley Act would not pass in this TL.

And those probably wouldn't be the only effects, either. For one, on the societal front, African-Americans and other minorities would have had a rather substantially easier time levelling off the playing field not just in terms of job security & earnings, but social acceptance as well; concurring with this, there would also be far less outright racism. Were it not for the primarily Southern perpetuated race-baiting problem, marijuana probably would not have been banned on a nationwide scale as it was in 1938 IOTL, and if there was a War on Drugs, it wouldn't likely be the absolute clusterfuck of OTL.

As for American conservatism, it likely wouldn't have taken the rather hardcore turn that it did in our world, starting in the Reagan era, but with many of those roots with the "Southern Strategy". Economic libertarianism(especially of the Paulite variety) would also be less likely to take root, while social libertarianism would be somewhat more accepted.
Fundamentalism, if it is still created, would be far less focused on End-Times mania in our world and people such as Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etc., would be regarded as being more on the fringes.

Certainly, there would be a lot of cultural reprecussions as well.
On the music front, the country genre has become surprisingly popular outside of it's Southern homeland in our world; even in Canada & Australia, American country music has it's fair share of fans. But what happens with country ITTL may depend on how the Confederacy turns out; if the C.S.A. becomes an international pariah, country music may be far more limited in scope, and may be primarily limited to that nation, and perhaps wherever Confederate expats may have made their homes.

*Rock-and-roll, whatever it might be named, would be far more likely to originate in the Union in an independent C.S.A. timeline, perhaps in California or the Mountain West. Jazz, originally a New Orleans product in our world, might be more Latin or Jewish influenced in our world; New York and Chicago are two of the most likely places for its birth ITTL.

And one must wonder how a Nascar expy would develop in this world, too.. What if stock car racing was created in Unionite California and not Florida as in our universe? How would that develop?

So much to cover, so little time.....:cool:
 
We would see big time effects on the rest of the US from a Confederate secession. The US had to make HUGE compromises on the idea of inequality because the South was kept in the Union. If the South was no longer part of the United States, those compromises would not happen. We would see more and sooner recognition of labour unions and the right to strike, as occurred in Canada, Australia and Europe. No compromise would be made denying the right of workers to join unions, even farm workers. Taft-Hartley Act would not pass in this TL.

This sounds an awful lot like back-projecting fetishism.
 
As I said in my OP I'd like to know what effects an independent CSA will have on OTHER countries. If you want to talk about the directions the USA and CSA will take then that all well and good, but start your own thread on the subject because that is not the one I opened this thread for.

So like I also mentioned in my OP does anyone have ideas on how it may effect the unification of countries like Germany and Canada? As well how might it change the Republican movements in European countries from OTL's route like in Spain for example.
 
As I said in my OP I'd like to know what effects an independent CSA will have on OTHER countries. If you want to talk about the directions the USA and CSA will take start your own thread on the subject because that is not the one I opened this thread for.

So like I also mentioned in my OP does anyone have ideas on how it may effect the unification of countries like Germany and Canada? As well how might it change the Republican movements in European countries from OTL's route like in Spain for example.

Well, if the Spanish Civil War still happens, the C.S.A., especially a slave-owning one, would definitely be liable to support Franco and company, TBH: they would NOT have been friends with the liberal Republicans. At all.

Canada's unification would probably go on as OTL unless Britain got entangled in a war with them; then perhaps the U.S. may seize the Maritimes and/or the British Columbia region(maybe including the Yukon, too, while they're at it).
 
Well, if the Spanish Civil War still happens, the C.S.A., especially a slave-owning one, would definitely be liable to support Franco and company, TBH: they would NOT have been friends with the liberal Republicans. At all.

Canada's unification would probably go on as OTL unless Britain got entangled in a war with them; then perhaps the U.S. may seize the Maritimes and/or the British Columbia region(maybe including the Yukon, too, while they're at it).
Actually I was more interested in the formation of the First Spanish Republic. Also I can't remember many of the details but I recall a lot of people didn't want to join the Canadian Confederation when initially given the choice. Couldn't the success of the CSA's secession inspire the Maritimes and BC to remain independent?
 
Actually I was more interested in the formation of the First Spanish Republic. Also I can't remember many of the details but I recall a lot of people didn't want to join the Canadian Confederation when initially given the choice.

I dunno so much about the First Republic, but given that some of its proponents appear to have been left-wing revolutionaries, I can imagine that the C.S.A. might support the Monarchy just because of that, even if for no other reason.

Couldn't the success of the CSA's secession inspire the Maritimes and BC to remain independent?

To make a long story short, it's not likely. If anything at all, the example set by the CSA might actually want to make them stick together more closely.
 
Well, if the Spanish Civil War still happens, the C.S.A., especially a slave-owning one, would definitely be liable to support Franco and company, TBH: they would NOT have been friends with the liberal Republicans. At all. .

It's not like that'd be so different from OTL. American business interests (Ford, General Motors, Texaco, etc.) provided trucks and gasoline to the Nationalists on credit. There's a quote from one Spanish Foreign Ministry person that "without American petroleum and American trucks, and American credit, we could never have won the Civil War."

It really does depend quite a bit on how the CSA turns out though. I did read an argument from another AH-poster that the CSA could eventually experience a Communist rebellion thanks to corruption/income inequality/economic stagnation/rule by the rich planters/etc. Such a CSA would of course have a very different impact on the world scale than a 'traditional' one.
 
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