WI: Defensive alt-Fascist 1930s Germany

Suppose another fascist party becomes the dominant power in Germany in the early 1930s in place of the Nazis. Like the Nazis these alt-fascists are both anti-semitic and anti-communist. Unlike the Nazis, however, they view Communism as the ultimate evil while Jews are merely considered distasteful. Most importantly, they are not rabid expansionists. They aim to turn Germany into the ultimate fortress, a rock upon which the Bolsheviks will break their teeth (they believe Russia aims for the military conquest of Europe). In addition, they seek to bolster Germany's population not by increasing the birthrate, but by massively increasing the immigration rate of ethnic Germans into Germany proper.

Given these aims and these world-views, what economic and military programs does Germany implement to prepare for such conflict with Communism in general and the USSR in particular? What can the German government do to increase ethnic German immigration in the midst of a worldwide depression? Perhaps most importantly, what can this defense-oriented nation do to destabilize Russia and get them to make the first aggressive move?
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
I imagine dictatorship and heavy anti-communist anti-socialist repression. Also I imagine tacit or even open support from Britain and France. Better relations with Italy and perhaps in some ways an even more hostile relationship with the Soviet Union.
 
Suppose another fascist party becomes the dominant power in Germany in the early 1930s in place of the Nazis. Like the Nazis these alt-fascists are both anti-semitic and anti-communist. Unlike the Nazis, however, they view Communism as the ultimate evil while Jews are merely considered distasteful.

That's pretty much the DNVP, the German National People's Party, the DeutschNationale VolksPartei.

You might say, 'Nazi-Lite'

Admiral Tirpitz was an influential member till his health started to fail in 1928
 
I imagine dictatorship and heavy anti-communist anti-socialist repression. Also I imagine tacit or even open support from Britain and France. Better relations with Italy and perhaps in some ways an even more hostile relationship with the Soviet Union.

An adamantly hostile relationship with the Soviet Union would be the core element shaping the actions of these alt-fascists, even to the point of irrationality, just as hatred of Jews was the core motivator for the Nazis. Do you think Pilsudski would be open to collaborating with the Germans on his Prometheism agenda, or would he be too distrustful of German intentions, seeing as Poland and Germany have serious unresolved territorial disputes?
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
An adamantly hostile relationship with the Soviet Union would be the core element shaping the actions of these alt-fascists, even to the point of irrationality, just as hatred of Jews was the core motivator for the Nazis. Do you think Pilsudski would be open to collaborating with the Germans on his Prometheism agenda, or would he be too distrustful of German intentions, seeing as Poland and Germany have serious unresolved territorial disputes?
Depends Pilsudski was a polish nationalist. They might if they deem the Soviet Union a great enough threat. Though Poland's grand imperial ambitions in Eastern Europe and Eurasia I doubt the alt-fascist Germany would be in favor of that though.
 
Depends Pilsudski was a polish nationalist. They might if they deem the Soviet Union a great enough threat. Though Poland's grand imperial ambitions in Eastern Europe and Eurasia I doubt the alt-fascist Germany would be in favor of that though.
I doubt these alt-fascist would be too concerned with Pilsudski's grand ambitions. For one thing, they would drive the sale of German armaments, a major growth industry in this Germany. As well, they would know that Poland is no Soviet Union. Too rapid an expansion makes Poland weaker, not stronger, especially if they take in too many Ukrainians, who are the best bet for the Prometheist scheme to to rip away a big chunk of Soviet territory.
 

Yun-shuno

Banned
I doubt these alt-fascist would be too concerned with Pilsudski's grand ambitions. For one thing, they would drive the sale of German armaments, a major growth industry in this Germany. As well, they would know that Poland is no Soviet Union. Too rapid an expansion makes Poland weaker, not stronger, especially if they take in too many Ukrainians, who are the best bet for the Prometheist scheme to to rip away a big chunk of Soviet territory.
If Pilsudski gets his imperial fantasies satisfied what is to stop him turning on Germany Poland's other historic enemy?
 
If Pilsudski gets his imperial fantasies satisfied what is to stop him turning on Germany Poland's other historic enemy?
Pilsudski endgame seems to have been the creation of coalition of independent states between the Baltic and the Black seas that would be powerful enough to resist invasion from both the West and the East. Among the states to be included in this coalition were Finland, the Baltic states, and Czechoslovakia. These states would never join if they saw Poland aggressively expanding into non-Polish territory. Pilsudski may have revered the memory of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, but I think he realized that its literal recreation was impossible.
That's pretty much the DNVP, the German National People's Party, the DeutschNationale VolksPartei.

You might say, 'Nazi-Lite'

Admiral Tirpitz was an influential member till his health started to fail in 1928
I read that Tirpitz campaigned in Munich to get Catholic support for the DNVP during the 1924 elections. Perhaps a winning strategy for an alt-DNVP would be to cast their struggle against Communism as a simultaneous fight against atheism. This could also help them in their election battles with the Nazis, whom they could portray as anti-church and crypto-pagan.
 

Redbeard

Banned
The issues that started it all, i.e. the Rheinland, Danzig-corridor, Sudetenland and Austria still would be there and any nationalist minded government couldn't ignore it. Seen from today we remember Chamberlains humiliating failure in appeasement and the later German attrocities almost anywhere they came, but seen from the interwar years millions of Germans were left in new neighbouring states and often exposed to explicit persecution and discrimination. You might call it expansionist to demand these areas back, but seen from Germany it was "just" a small justification of the injusticies of Versailles. No German government, and certainly not a nationalist minded one, could ignore that.

So while WWII might still start a Germany without the worst racist issues might fare differently. I think it would be stupid to ignore Stalin but the question is if a nationalist government without the Lebensraum and Übermensch obsessions would throw itself into an ill prepared assault on the SU in mid 1941?

Stalin will probably attack in 1942 with hundreds of Divisions and tens of thousands of tanks, but what about utilising the time to establish freindly bufferstates (vassals) in the East and a Wehrmacht capable of defence in depth and operational counterstrike?

In this scenario it will be much more difficult for a Churchill to state that : "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons". Actually he might say "Stalin" instead of "Hitler" (or whoever is in charge in Germany).

If/when Japan strike at PH you of course declare war on Japan.
 
I doubt these alt-fascist would be too concerned with Pilsudski's grand ambitions. For one thing, they would drive the sale of German armaments, a major growth industry in this Germany. As well, they would know that Poland is no Soviet Union. Too rapid an expansion makes Poland weaker, not stronger, especially if they take in too many Ukrainians, who are the best bet for the Prometheist scheme to to rip away a big chunk of Soviet territory.
The way I see it, some expansion would happen even with this plan. Danzig would definitely be annexed, as would Austria (these two areas are exclusively German in population). The Sudetenland... possibly. As for the Poles, the German fascists could, in my opinion, make a deal one of two ways. Renounce their claims to the Polish Corridor in exchange for letting Danzig join Germany proper, or annex the Polish Corridor along with Danzig in exchange for the Poles to go into union with the Lithuanians (giving Poland access to the sea). In both cases they would have to drop claims to Posen.
 
The issues that started it all, i.e. the Rheinland, Danzig-corridor, Sudetenland and Austria still would be there and any nationalist minded government couldn't ignore it. Seen from today we remember Chamberlains humiliating failure in appeasement and the later German attrocities almost anywhere they came, but seen from the interwar years millions of Germans were left in new neighbouring states and often exposed to explicit persecution and discrimination. You might call it expansionist to demand these areas back, but seen from Germany it was "just" a small justification of the injusticies of Versailles. No German government, and certainly not a nationalist minded one, could ignore that.

So from the point of view of these alt-fascists, the Gordian Knot they have to undo involves getting back enough territory to satisfy the grass-roots voter, while at the same time not angering potential allies they will need against the Soviet threat. Britain would seem to be an option at getting a somewhat sympathetic ear as regards these land claims, more so if the German government offers military and diplomatic cooperation against the Soviets. The US is probably even more sympathetic, seeing as American opinion held the Versailles Treaty to be unduly harsh, even vindictive. To sway the American public even further these alt-fascists will most likely try to set up their own version of the German-American Bund.

The way I see it, some expansion would happen even with this plan. Danzig would definitely be annexed, as would Austria (these two areas are exclusively German in population). The Sudetenland... possibly. As for the Poles, the German fascists could, in my opinion, make a deal one of two ways. Renounce their claims to the Polish Corridor in exchange for letting Danzig join Germany proper, or annex the Polish Corridor along with Danzig in exchange for the Poles to go into union with the Lithuanians (giving Poland access to the sea). In both cases they would have to drop claims to Posen.

Danzig I can see happening, as it's a single city with a long German history. Annexing Austria would be too much, as it would chill relations with potential allies like Britain and Italy. I think the alt-fascists would try more for the client state option. It keeps them from looking too expansionist, while at the same time ensuring a they have a guaranteed backer in Central European diplomacy and at the League of Nations.
 
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