WI: Danish army fights delaying action in WW2

Driftless

Donor
The Øresund strait is only 4 kilometers wide at its narrowest (at Elsinore), I'd say that is close enough. Elsewhere down the coast, i.e. Copenhagen-Malmö, it's only 8 km if you follow the Øresund Bridge. Even with a pretty emasculated Kriegsmarine near the end of the war, I'd say Germany was always a very real threat militarily to Sweden - if they wanted to be.

The river barges and the like that the Germans considered for Seelowe would look less crazy for crossing the Øresund.

(*edit* I know this is a tangent)
 
Are you suggesting that Danish AAA crews shoot as straight as Dutch AAA?


Mayby, the eyewitness report of an KLM pilot of the paratroop assault on the airfield at Oslo, had an great impact on the Dutch Plans to defend their Airfields.
(bunkers, extra troops/AA guns at the airfields, mobile reserve/armoured car nearby stationed etc). To be as effective as the dutch, the danes must have some idea of what
is coming. Mayby a mixed German/Dane paratrooper said to much to his danisch cousin (who is in military intellicence).
 

Redbeard

Banned
Since we agree that the foundation for German success in Norway was so relatively fragile and really hinged on Aalborg and getting the troop transports through, then you could even have a a significant result here by way of 'unforeseen escalation'.

Suppose one of the aforementioned subs (a result of jeune ecole OTL or jeune ecole on speed) for some reason is on a schedule that brings it to sea and close to the German ships at some point. The sub commander can see what's going on and indeed he receives a signal that the Germans are invading. But then communication is actually broken off for technical reasons. The commander sees one of the big ships, say Scharnhorst, and with a lucky shot puts it under.

Scharnhorst wasn't even carrying that many troops IIRC, the Twins were mostly there to provide 'distant cover', but never mind. For when Hitler hears of this 'outrageous act' from the Danes, he gets a fit and orders Copenhagen to be bombed.

Several members of government are killed by the bombs either in the official buildings or en route to somewhere. In the ensuing chaos, before someone to represent the Danish government with authority can be found, the battles continue, and commanders will have to rely on local initiative and Do Something, say, blow up the Aalborg runway.

A combo of these changes, starting with a slightly changed sailing schedule and a faulty radio, could do a lot of to upset the German attack on Norway.

Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Hipper were at Lofoten by 9th of April but there would be a heavy trafic of transports and their escorts up the Danish straits. As soon as the Germans cross the border the Danish units on patrol will attack.

And then there is the very sinsiter version: Danish military intelligence learn of the German plans but fear the Danish politicians will not dare mobilise or resist. So it is arranged with a young and very eager submarine captain, that he place his sub in Skagerak in early April and await major German warships passing by. When something worthwhile shows up he simply fires his complete torpedoload into the ship and hope for the best (simple plans are usually the best).

Scharnhorst by 7th of April passes by and get a shitload of torpedoes in her backboard side and sinks with heavy loss of life. The German escorts sink the Danish sub and conclude from wreckage that it is Danish. The German declaration of war follows within a few hours. As the German trrops meant for the scheduled invasion of 9th of April are not in place yet it only comes to skirmishes in S. Jutland. In the meantime the Danes mobilise and by 9th of April the Jutland Divsion is taking up a main defensive position at the "Kongeå-line" roughly between Kolding and Esbjerg. The attempted "coup" against Copenhagen fails as the transport carrying the troops is sunk by the fortification guarding the port. In the meantime the Zealand Division is mobilised and takes up its positions.

Minefields are activated in the Danish straits and during the nights to 8th and 9th of April more minefields are laid. Copenhagen is heavily bombed but the Wehrmacht realise that the two Infantry Divisions originally planned against Denmark (one for Jutland and one for Zealand) are not enough and a Panzer Division is directed towards the Danish border but the invasion of Norway is postponed until further (the airborne assault on Aalborg is wiped out).

The British-French forces originally planned to invade Norway are redirected to Denmark and take up positions behind "Kongeå-line" just before the Panzer Division arrive. The Panzer Division succeed in penetrating the Kongeå-Line in a number of places, but the density of allied troops in the terrain behind in "hedge-hog formation" has the panzer units separate from its infantry and although the panzer units cause large confusion they are soon grinded down by attrition.

The allied success in Denmark is a worldwide sensation while Hitler goes amock in his HQ sacking a number of Generals and a handful of officials who had claimed that "there would be no problems with the Danes" are shot in a backyard.

Further Panzer Divisions are directed towards Jutland, but the Danish-French-British forces can deploy in such depth that all attacks over the narrow front simply bog down and vaporise in the "hinterland" beween the hedgehog positions. The British 2pdr AT gun show its superiority but the French 75mm field gun also show its potential as an AT weapon. The Danish forces soon specialise in attacking isolated Panzers with "Hitler-snaps" - ie. botles filled with gasoline and much inspired by Finnish Molotov cocktails in the Finnish-Soviet war.

Soon the Norwegians declare war on Germany and Norwegian units are deployed at the front. The Swedes try to repeat the line from the Finnish-Soviet war - ie. not taking actively part, but supplying their neighbour as well as possible. At the moment that isn't much, as the stocks are already depleted from supplying the Finnish, but anyway the Danes are receiving plenty of British and French materiel.

In Berlin the plans for an attack on France in May are postponed and meanwhile French, British and American factories are spitting out war materiel and by far outpacing the Germans.

The heavy bombing of Danish cities has the British and French place modern fighters in Denmark - this is closing to be the attritinal war they are hoping for - and by September the Luftwaffe must realise that losses are to big compared to the results.

In Berlin Hitler is found dead in his bedroom one morning and Hess suddenly appear in England. The British through their Swiss contacts ask Berlin: "are you serious?". Berlin answer back: "He isn't but we are, can we stop this now?"

Col. Lunding, the chief of the Army Intelligence Bureau, who was arrested at 8th of April but released soon after leads an investigation on several leading politicians and military chiefs for treason. A handful, including the foreign secretary P. Munch and the Cheif of the Navy Adm Reichnitzer are shot one morning at the Baracks at Christianshavn, just south of Copenhagen city.
 
Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Hipper were at Lofoten by 9th of April but there would be a heavy trafic of transports and their escorts up the Danish straits. As soon as the Germans cross the border the Danish units on patrol will attack. And then there is the very sinsiter version.... [snip]
Col. Lunding, the chief of the Army Intelligence Bureau, who was arrested at 8th of April but released soon after leads an investigation on several leading politicians and military chiefs for treason. A handful, including the foreign secretary P. Munch and the Cheif of the Navy Adm Reichnitzer are shot one morning at the Baracks at Christianshavn, just south of Copenhagen city.

Thanks for clarifying the position of the ships - ! There were enough troop transports to go around, so I suppose it wouldn't have mattered as long as the Danes bagged some big ones, or several small.

And I love your "sinister scenario" - it deserves that someone writes it as a story! :-D

Supposing that they actually wanted to land in Denmark, what would the logistical challenges be for the Brits and French to do so no more than a week after 9 April? (I don't believe the Danes can hold out much longer against Hitler with a POD later than 1864!)
 

Redbeard

Banned
They were at sea already by 8th of April and it would only take an order to redirect them to Denmark. Plenty of good ports would be available - Esbjerg, Aalborg, Frederikshavn, Aarhus, Horsens, Vejle, Fredericia, Kolding etc. - all in Jutland.

Logistically the OTL operation was quite messy, some units brought pianos, but only shoes for left feet etc. (or so I've heard...). I guess they could be in Denmark at the same time they were in Norway, i.e. 9th of April and the next days.

But actually my idea is to utilise the initial confusion. Military units in a logistic mess and not really knowing where it is and what orders are will dig in and prepare defence 360 degrees around (ie hedgehog positions in chequerboard formation). That has been SOP for milleniums but it also showed to be a very effective way to oppose Blitzkrieg. A WWI type frontline would loose its coherrence if penetrated by Panzers, but hedgehog positions will just watch the Panzer swarm around while the accompanying infantry is engaged and stopped. If/when the Panzers try to engage the hedgehogs they can be fought with simple means like Molotov cocktails, satchel charges or bundles of handgrenades.

In OTL France the French after Weygrand took over used these tactics and the German losses accelerated. The 75mm field gun was used with great effect in this phase of the Battle of France. By that time the French losses had also become too big however and we know what happened. In this ATL the deployed French and British units are much more professional than the 2nd rate reserve formations taking the initial assault in France. From a quick search the British sent at least four brigades to Norway and the French (and some Polish) a sizeable force too. I've seen 45.000 troops in all mentioned. Together with the Danish Jutland Division that is more than enough to turn Jutland into one big defensive position that can grind down any attack that can be deployed there.

Initially the biggest problem will be German airpower, which most likely will intensify rapidly. But as these are not the 2nd rate formations of Sedan the troops are unlikely to panic and the attrition on the Luftwaffe will soon be felt hard. The Luftwaffe really can't afford to throw all its bolts at Denmark with the western front vs. France still in place and threatening. The allies, and not at least the French, had planned for a long attritional air war over the front and thus were quite unprepared for the assault in May, but the opening of the Danish front will actually offer an opportunity for such an attritional air war. Initially it will be quite a job to establish the airfields, but after all Denmark has a lot of flat fields that can take a 1940 fighter and plenty of ports and roads to supply them over. The island of Samsø in the middle of Kattegat would be interesting as an "unsinkable aircraft carrier" outside the reach of German penetrations of the front.
I could even imagine the Swedes allowing allied airbases on Swedish territory.

BTW, if the attack on Denmark in April doesn't achieve immediate success, practically the entire Kriegsmarine is cut off. The North Sea route might of course be tried to get home, but wouldn't be much easier than the Danish straits. If any ships are to get home safe the Luftwaffe probably will need to focus its forces on covering the North sea. Not easy while also being engaged over Denmark and France.
 
I tried to do a TL on this scenario a while back, but I gave up before I really got into it. It is unfinished and by my own admission "not good", primarily owning to a lack of good sources before I began, but it can be read here: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-occuption-of-denmark-in-world-war-ii.286324/

The problem, that I ran into, was a bit of a Sealion-problem.

OTL, there is little reason for the Danes to fight and few forces for them to fight with. Sure, if you go back and make a POD 5-40 years prior, this can be changed, but then again, if you have a heavily armed / aggressive Danish military, then the whole operation into Norway gets butterflied away OR the Germany simply commits more forces to the operation.
 
(If you want to get very dark, the Queen was heavily pregnant with the girl who would become Margrethe II – the death of her and her unborn child would add to the frenzy. Even the stoical Danes have a line.)

Minor nickpit, but in 1940, it was the then crown princess Ingrid, who was pregnant with the current queen Margrethe II, who was born a week following the German invasion. In 1940, Queen Alexandrine was 60 years old, and no historical records of a pregnancy for her at this time is known.
 
It's a pity that the discussion of whether or not we should have resisted harder is nowhere near as nuanced in Denmark today IMO, as it is here in AH :).

Given that cooperation was by far the best course of action given the circumstances OTL, I don't see why it should be. We already had that dreadful attempt by Fogh-Rasmussen about apologizing for the peaceful occupation.

and the Swedes not secretly negotiating with the Germans about a partition of Denmark!

Say whaat? That's news to me - was that truly a thing?

Anyway, with a Conservative government (or any government not dependent on the centrist and pacifist "Radical Left" (yes that is their name, but they're neither radical nor left)) would increase the chance of an armed neutrality. If the level of armament from WWI is kept the available armed forces would be 2-3 times stronger: 5+ Divisions, 15-20 subs, 15-20 coastal destroyers/torpedoboats, 2 modern armoured ships (similar to the Finnish Vainamoinen class), extensive coastal fortifications and an airforce with more than one squadron of modern aircraft.

As Colonel Hackel would say, "Death to Prior and the radical scum!"
 
Minor nickpit, but in 1940, it was the then crown princess Ingrid, who was pregnant with the current queen Margrethe II, who was born a week following the German invasion. In 1940, Queen Alexandrine was 60 years old, and no historical records of a pregnancy for her at this time is known.
Did not know that, thought Kristian was M's dad.
 
Initially the biggest problem will be German airpower, which most likely will intensify rapidly

I'm afraid it's going to be very big in such a scenario. I'd argue we have a reverse Sea-lion situation here - how can the Anglo-French force sustain the landings in Jutland within range of practically the entire Luftwaffe of Northern Germany?

And, from the viewpoint of that time, if we get this far - Norway force redirected - what would the strategic goal be? After all, if you throw the Germans out of Norway you can garrison the country and say 'mission accomplished'. The German frontier + relatively short sealanes tw. Denmark makes for a very spicy situation. If you manage to stop or even make the Germans retreat, what then?

The only thing I can think of is if the French get their act together and does a Saar-offensive II with a little more elan than the last time.
 

Redbeard

Banned
I'm afraid it's going to be very big in such a scenario. I'd argue we have a reverse Sea-lion situation here - how can the Anglo-French force sustain the landings in Jutland within range of practically the entire Luftwaffe of Northern Germany?

And, from the viewpoint of that time, if we get this far - Norway force redirected - what would the strategic goal be? After all, if you throw the Germans out of Norway you can garrison the country and say 'mission accomplished'. The German frontier + relatively short sealanes tw. Denmark makes for a very spicy situation. If you manage to stop or even make the Germans retreat, what then?

The only thing I can think of is if the French get their act together and does a Saar-offensive II with a little more elan than the last time.


If the Luftwaffe focus all their forces on Jutland it will indeed be difficult to move any troops at daytime in Jutland, but I doubt they can react quickly enough to stop the embarkation. The allied forces already were at sea and the ports are so many and so good that it can be done quickly. The problem of the Luftwaffe and the Wehrmacht is that every plane, tank or man lost over/in Jutland will be needed in Fall Gelb, and that operation already was extremely stretched in OTL.


So even if the Germans succeed in conquering Jutland and eventually all of Denmark, they really won’t have gained anything they didn’t get in OTL, but the all-important invasion of France will either have to be postponed, in which case it probably fails, because the French have grown too strong, or it will have to be launched with less resources behind, in which case it probably also fails because the operation already was stretched to the limit. First of all I think the problem will be mental. The Germans already were in severe doubt if Fall Gelb would succeed and in OTL were close to losing their nerve and hesitate.


But anyway, it is a good question if the allies will utilize the opportunity to open a front in Jutland. There are points for and there are points against (as usual) but at the end of it all I’ll claim that it was operationally possible, but risky.


With my 20-20 hindsight I know that the risk (of losing the Norwegian Expedition Force) was a small price for having Fall Gelb to fail. They couldn’t know that at the time, but OTOH it already had been decided to risk the force in Norway. I’m sure Chruchill would be all in for such operations, but at this time he is “only” First Lord of the Admiralty – but after all in charge of the Scandinavian operation.


If the operation is extended to Denmark I would have the Norwegians actively in as soon as possible. Airbases in S. Norway would be very handy for aircover over the Skagerak and N. Jutland and under which you can build up your own airstrength and gradually extend your airsuperiority.


It is still most likely that the “Kongeå-line” can’t be hold against a determined German assault, but a fighting retreat up the Jutland peninsula to the Limfjord will be just as good. By early April you still have reasonably long nights and a lot of foul weather so much of the movement to new positions can be done without air interference.
 
If the Luftwaffe focus all their forces on Jutland it will indeed be difficult to move any troops at daytime in Jutland, but I doubt they can react quickly enough to stop the embarkation.

Much as I like your scenario, man ... it's hard for me to imagine an Allied landing in Jutland that wouldn't end in disaster. Consider this: For Weser alone the Germans had

  • 102 fighters.
  • 233 bombers.
  • 39 dive bombers.
  • 165 reconnaissance aircraft (including float planes).
  • 582 transport aircraft.
Add to that anything they can quickly bring up from the rest of Germany. I don't have the numbers for April but in August the Luftwaffe was at 787 planes in fighter-strength alone.

The Brits have 3 carriers with a combined strength of about 150 non-replaceable planes to protect the navy approaching Jutland, the landing forces at all embarkation points and provide aircover for the forces inland.

The RN is, btw, forcing waters close to German territory - with all that that entails of subs, mines and other nasties to count with, aside from the at this time still significant KM.

So, yeah, technically possible to get some troops ashore, of course, but not very many before the lifeline of the RN is ground down by repeated airstrikes and then the rest of the forces are dealt with. By 10 May OTL the Germans were still fighting in Norway and at the end of that campaign on 10 June they had lost

5,296 men
(1,317 killed on land,
2,375 lost at sea,
1,604 wounded)

I doubt the casualty rates would be anywhere near as high here, no matter how lucky the Allies get with getting troops ashore in Esbjerg and elsewhere, so materially it will matter little for Fall Gelb if the Germans bog down before Norway. Psychologically, yeah - that's probably a whole other story. Good point!

Even Churchill didn't have hindsight (although he may often have acted that way LOL), so I think it's more plausible that once the Brits realize something is really bottling the Germans up in Denmark they'll fire off all their planes and bomb whatever German formations they can find. Maybe some special troops, paratroops, a raid here and there to destroy whatever could be strategically significant, provide some advisory aid to the struggling Danes.

But risking all of the troops (many of which were recalled OTL to deal with the attack on France) in a de facto suicide invasion of Jutland, I don't think that is plausible under any variation of this scenario. I'd probably be a bit cynical and say that the British will give Denmark a de facto Mers-El-Kebir treatment and do the abovementioned, maybe even bomb Aalborg airfield themselves or send in special forces to blow it up, and then dumping a sh*tload of mines in Skagerrak to keep the Germans away from Norway.

The Brits can do that ('Norway-denial') in a lot of ways, without landing too many troops, once the realize the Germans are behind schedule and that it is not necessary to clear German troops out of Norway before trying to do anything near Denmark, which was a lost cause OTL after 6 hours.
 

Redbeard

Banned
Much as I like your scenario, man ... it's hard for me to imagine an Allied landing in Jutland that wouldn't end in disaster. Consider this: For Weser alone the Germans had

  • 102 fighters.
  • 233 bombers.
  • 39 dive bombers.
  • 165 reconnaissance aircraft (including float planes).
  • 582 transport aircraft.
Add to that anything they can quickly bring up from the rest of Germany. I don't have the numbers for April but in August the Luftwaffe was at 787 planes in fighter-strength alone.

The Brits have 3 carriers with a combined strength of about 150 non-replaceable planes to protect the navy approaching Jutland, the landing forces at all embarkation points and provide aircover for the forces inland.

The RN is, btw, forcing waters close to German territory - with all that that entails of subs, mines and other nasties to count with, aside from the at this time still significant KM.

So, yeah, technically possible to get some troops ashore, of course, but not very many before the lifeline of the RN is ground down by repeated airstrikes and then the rest of the forces are dealt with. By 10 May OTL the Germans were still fighting in Norway and at the end of that campaign on 10 June they had lost

5,296 men
(1,317 killed on land,
2,375 lost at sea,
1,604 wounded)

I doubt the casualty rates would be anywhere near as high here, no matter how lucky the Allies get with getting troops ashore in Esbjerg and elsewhere, so materially it will matter little for Fall Gelb if the Germans bog down before Norway. Psychologically, yeah - that's probably a whole other story. Good point!

Even Churchill didn't have hindsight (although he may often have acted that way LOL), so I think it's more plausible that once the Brits realize something is really bottling the Germans up in Denmark they'll fire off all their planes and bomb whatever German formations they can find. Maybe some special troops, paratroops, a raid here and there to destroy whatever could be strategically significant, provide some advisory aid to the struggling Danes.

But risking all of the troops (many of which were recalled OTL to deal with the attack on France) in a de facto suicide invasion of Jutland, I don't think that is plausible under any variation of this scenario. I'd probably be a bit cynical and say that the British will give Denmark a de facto Mers-El-Kebir treatment and do the abovementioned, maybe even bomb Aalborg airfield themselves or send in special forces to blow it up, and then dumping a sh*tload of mines in Skagerrak to keep the Germans away from Norway.

The Brits can do that ('Norway-denial') in a lot of ways, without landing too many troops, once the realize the Germans are behind schedule and that it is not necessary to clear German troops out of Norway before trying to do anything near Denmark, which was a lost cause OTL after 6 hours.

In a political analysis of the situation I agree that it is unlikely that the allies choose to commit any forces in Denmark. They have achieved their original intention of keeping Norway away from Germany and as they have no clue about our OTL knowledge of the fall of France shortly after, they have no clear motivation to risk the Norway expedition force in Jutland.

But in a classical intelligence analysis - ie. not guessing what someone will do but estimating what he can - I will maintain that it would be possible to land the Norwegian Expedition force (NEF) in Jutland and have it engage the Germans with a sufficient degree of success.

It will require however that the allies have access to airbases in S. Norway and are willing to commit significant airstrength.

My general idea is that while the Jutland Division make a fighting retreat up the Jutland peninsula reinforced by mobile units from the NEF the allies land in Jutland north of the Limfjord (ie. Vendsyssel and Thy to Danes) and under aircover from S. Norway. ASAP airbases are established in Vendsyssel/Thy, some capacity will be present at the existing base at Aalborg.

Even if the Germans advance very fast from the border the Limfjord will take considerable time to cross. If the Germans choose to focus all available forces on dislodging the allied bridgehead in Vendsyssel/Thy I guess they will be able to, but the men, time and materiel spent will make it impossible to launch Fall Gelb in May - and that is significant in a "history of humanity" degree. The allies will much easier be able to replace losses in men and materiel - even the French production/import was accelerating by spring 1940.

If the Germans choose not to cross the Limfjord, but just "contain" the allied bridgehead, they will still have to commit forces not committed in OTL and they have a potentially open flank making the OTL "daredevil" approach in Fall Gelb even more unlikely.

But first of all they will not have that aura of invincibility they had in OTL May 1940. I doubt if Hitler will survive until summer.

But probably it would have been enough to just have the Germans fail in Norway and leave Denmark for the moment. So even if it would be a very interesting ATL and I actually believe Churchill would like to perform it, the politically sound decision would probably have been staying out of Jutland but waving your Norwegian laurels as visibly as possible.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year :)
 
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