WI Dakar Raid Succeeds?

What would happen if the British and Free French succeeded in capturing Dakar in Operation Menace? Would the other Vichy colonies be more encouraged to be Free French?
 
I recall bits here & there about a large portion of the French gold reserve ending up in Dakar. It had been evacuated in June 1940 & for whatever reason this portion did not make it to Algeria. Any experts able to clarify this?
 
I recall bits here & there about a large portion of the French gold reserve ending up in Dakar. It had been evacuated in June 1940 & for whatever reason this portion did not make it to Algeria. Any experts able to clarify this?


Yes, and the Belgian and Polish gold reserves were also sent to French West Africa. I wonder what happened to the Polish gold after the war...was it given to the Communist Poland?
 
IIRC the gold reserves were further inland? and moved even further after the raid?

the Vichy regime feed the gold to Nazis over a period of time (principally the Belgian gold?) and have never seen any indication whether that was logistics or leverage?

seems certain if they lost the gold and started losing control over colonies you would have earlier Case Anton invasion ...
 
I assume this means the French colony of Senegal going over to De Gaulle, which would be a major coup. Indeed it could quickly be the whole of French West Africa. Politically it would provide him with enormous prestige, both in other colonies and in France. The wealth could help him build the Free French cause better, and gives him a significant naval force, a really good unfinished battleship Richelieu, two quality light cruisers Georges Leygues, and Montcalm and some destroyers and submarines. The colony of Senegal allows him to recruit several battalions, and French Senegalese troops were highly regarded.

Logistically this might improve the air ferry route from West Africa to the Middle East, but a much bigger gain is the port of Dakar. Freetown, Sierra Leone was the only major port in West Africa, and was a major replenishing point for convoys to the Middle and Far East from the UK. Its facilities were, relatively, quite basic. Dakar would provide a second port to replenish at, with better facilities, easing the congestion at Freetown. This would be a significant improvement for the convoy system.
 
I recall bits here and there about a large portion of the French gold reserve ending up in Dakar. It had been evacuated in June 1940 and for whatever reason this portion did not make it to Algeria. Any experts able to clarify this?
I don't recall the exact amounts but from memory roughly 45% of the reserves ended up in New York, 45% end up in Thies which is about 25 miles inland on Dakar, and 10% in Fort-de-France in Martinique.


IIRC the gold reserves were further inland? And moved even further after the raid?
After Operation Menace they then moved it another 450-odd miles inland to what's now Mali.
 
I don't recall the exact amounts but from memory roughly 45% of the reserves ended up in New York, 45% end up in Thies which is about 25 miles inland on Dakar, and 10% in Fort-de-France in Martinique.



After Operation Menace they then moved it another 450-odd miles inland to what's now Mali.

Thanks for that. Any good sources to recommend on this.
 

Archibald

Banned
How ironic is that, considering the sheer misery in Mali that still last to this day. They should have tried hijacking some of this gold, really.
 
Thanks for that. Any good sources to recommend on this.
I'm afraid not, this is all from quite a few years ago. The only reason it stuck in my memory is that previously to then I had been under the, mistaken, impression that a lot more had ended up in Fort-de-France with the balance staying in Dakar. Instead nearly half of it ended up spending the war in New York of all places! It makes sense since the French were planning for an extended war so it would have been used for purchasing supplies, as for why it wasn't seized there was the whole complex situation of which Ally recognised which French government and then throw in the fact that the Banque de France was a private company at the time as well.
 
I'm afraid not, this is all from quite a few years ago. The only reason it stuck in my memory is that previously to then I had been under the, mistaken, impression that a lot more had ended up in Fort-de-France with the balance staying in Dakar. Instead nearly half of it ended up spending the war in New York of all places! It makes sense since the French were planning for an extended war so it would have been used for purchasing supplies, as for why it wasn't seized there was the whole complex situation of which Ally recognised which French government and then throw in the fact that the Banque de France was a private company at the time as well.

The bullion in New York may in part have been from a March 1940 shipment to the depository in Toronto. As I understand two French warships hauled separate loads to Canada as collateral & future pmt for war purchases in the US. Unfortunately the article failed to specify how much bullion or how and when it was distributed.

Since the US and France were not at war until Nov 1942 there was no urgent legal basis for seizing any French assets.
 
It's a major boost to the Allies and to Free France, which roughly doubles its resources and assets.

It will affect the battle of the Atlantic - Dakar as a major naval base greatly improves Allied operations in the SE North Atlantic, which was a major convoy lane.

It has significant diplomatic and political effects as well. It may give Free France the heft to gain control of other colonies (Madagascar?). It will create a sort of front between Free French in West Africa, and Vichy French in North Africa. But this front will be in the emptiest part of the Sahara, so actual contact would be minimal.

It would alarm the Axis, which might press to have German or Italian forces posted in Morocco or elsewhere in North Africa to insure against a similar Allied coup there.

If there are no dramatic consequences before 1942, it will encourage the development of the pro-Allie faction in North Africa. One might see Free French infiltration of North Africa overland. This could change the dynamics. OTL, the pro-Allied faction in North Africa formed as an alternative to Vichy and to Free France. Their plan was to seize power in North Africa in conjunction with an Allied invasion, and then be recognized as the government of France, reaping various political and financial rewards. In the event, they didn't have enough local support, and the Allies recognized Darlan instead. If Free France has substantially more operatives on the ground (i.e. infiltrators from West Africa), that could pre-empt this line of development.

TORCH was intended as a quick operation, and it would take too long for forces coming by land from West Africa to join in.
 
The Free French holding Dakar from 1940 butterflies away the US naves fears about German base the there and in northern Brazil, & 'Plan Rubber'; a forgotten footnote.
 
It would alarm the Axis, which might press to have German or Italian forces posted in Morocco or elsewhere in North Africa to insure against a similar Allied coup there.

always thought Axis could have threaded needle between France, Spain, and Italy and occupied the international zone of Tangier, IF they had built a sufficient force of Condors and u-boats pre-war to make it worthwhile.
 
always thought Axis could have threaded needle between France, Spain, and Italy and occupied the international zone of Tangier, IF they had built a sufficient force of Condors and u-boats pre-war to make it worthwhile.

There were a inquiry or two from the Germans about a maritime reconissance base in Morroco. As I understand the response was 'no'.

that was reasoning for Tangier zone, in grey area, which Spain seized control over 1940.

do you know when base was requested from French? if after Indochina and Syria lost it would be understandable?
 

Archibald

Banned
Pétain wet dream was Franco-like neutrality. Pétain had been ambassador to Spain and met Franco. Also, French and Spanish militaries had fought together in the Rift war. After the trauma of 1940, France lacked the will to fight further. In order to preserve that neutrality, Pétain (shall I say, Pierre Laval and his clique) was willing to compromise with the Germans... including give them French jews by the thousands. Disgusting. That how Vichy worked.
What Pétain failed to understand was that France could not stay out of WWII since it had been one of the major power to enter the war, plus the empire and the fleet, and finally, for the Wallies it was not possible to land in continental Europe and crush Germany without entering into France. Sooner or later France was bound to face its responsabilities in WWII. neutrality was impossible, not with Germany occupying half of the country.
Pétain and his government sometimes refused German requests, and sometimes conceded. It was pathetic.

They mostly resisted to German requests on two specific points: a) the empire and b) the fleet.

For example, the fight in Syria in May and June 1941: at the beginning the Luftwaffe wanted to fly Ju-88s from French bases in Syria (they were based in Rhodes). Vichy said "no" but as Germany was pissed off, Vichy had to fight against the British and Australians.
 
Pétain wet dream was Franco-like neutrality. Pétain had been ambassador to Spain and met Franco. Also, French and Spanish militaries had fought together in the Rift war. After the trauma of 1940, France lacked the will to fight further. In order to preserve that neutrality, Pétain (shall I say, Pierre Laval and his clique) was willing to compromise with the Germans... including give them French jews by the thousands. Disgusting. That how Vichy worked.
What Pétain failed to understand was that France could not stay out of WWII since it had been one of the major power to enter the war, plus the empire and the fleet, and finally, for the Wallies it was not possible to land in continental Europe and crush Germany without entering into France. Sooner or later France was bound to face its responsabilities in WWII. neutrality was impossible, not with Germany occupying half of the country.
Pétain and his government sometimes refused German requests, and sometimes conceded. It was pathetic.

They mostly resisted to German requests on two specific points: a) the empire and b) the fleet.

For example, the fight in Syria in May and June 1941: at the beginning the Luftwaffe wanted to fly Ju-88s from French bases in Syria (they were based in Rhodes). Vichy said "no" but as Germany was pissed off, Vichy had to fight against the British and Australians.

I thought the Germans did use Syria as an airbase?

Funnily enough, one of the authors of "The French Navy in World War II" says the British invasion of Syria was unjustified because (I'm not kidding), at the point of attack there were no (longer) Axis planes in Syria (probably since the Iraq revolt was already beaten).
 
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