OTL the MAN Panther prototype was chosen solely because it was believed to be quicker to get into production, which as we all know did not end up happening. What if the DB design had been chosen? I can't really see any disadvantages to it. It combines the best features of the T-34-sloped armor, cheapness, reliability and ease of production, with the best features of German tanks-three-man turret, the 75 mm gun, great optics, and radio. I understand that there could be a friendly-fire issue, but wouldn't there also be a corresponding one for the Soviets?
WI Daimler Benz Panther?
- Thread starter CrimsonKing
- Start date
As far as I can tell, losing tanks comes as a heavier blow to the German than the Soviets do given their slower replacement rates and lack of resources. Losing tanks to friendly fire is even more of a blow. That said, I don't think it's that serious an issue, mainly because the gun should be somewhat of a differentiating factor.
Deleted member 1487
http://hosted.wargamer.com/Panzer/panther.htm
There were a lot of issues with the DB Panther. It used the L48 gun instead of the L70, so would require a new turret, which would delay its introduction until mid-1943 at the earliest. The MAN designed used an existing turret, so could get into production faster. The DB also had leaf spring suspension and a diesel engine, which Germany did not have the industry ready for. They would have to scale up another separate engine industry for it; IOTL the MAN Panther and Tiger both used the Maybach petrol engines. Diesel adds all sorts of production issues. It was also limited in its 'stretch' ability. Its taking a 1940 design, slapping a long 75 on it after a lot of modification, and having it come out in 1944. It would be little more than the T-34/85 around the same time, but with far less production available. I think the MAN design was the way to go in the end, but without the uparmoring Hitler ordered or the rush into service.
There were a lot of issues with the DB Panther. It used the L48 gun instead of the L70, so would require a new turret, which would delay its introduction until mid-1943 at the earliest. The MAN designed used an existing turret, so could get into production faster. The DB also had leaf spring suspension and a diesel engine, which Germany did not have the industry ready for. They would have to scale up another separate engine industry for it; IOTL the MAN Panther and Tiger both used the Maybach petrol engines. Diesel adds all sorts of production issues. It was also limited in its 'stretch' ability. Its taking a 1940 design, slapping a long 75 on it after a lot of modification, and having it come out in 1944. It would be little more than the T-34/85 around the same time, but with far less production available. I think the MAN design was the way to go in the end, but without the uparmoring Hitler ordered or the rush into service.
The issue with the turret is real, but as I understand things, OTL Panther's teething problems lasted far longer than producing the new turret would have because it was such a complex design. As for engines and suspension, wasn't there a prototype that had a petrol engine and torsion bar suspension? I was assuming that that is the one that gets produced. I also have to respectfully disagree that it would be little more than the T-34-85. It would have OTL Panther's L/70 gun, optics, and radio. Combined with superior German training and tactics, in substantially larger numbers and greater reliability then OTL Panther, I think it would be a lot better then the T-34-85.
Edit: Also, if I remember correctly, the DB Panther had somewhat thicker armor then the T-34.
Edit: Also, if I remember correctly, the DB Panther had somewhat thicker armor then the T-34.
Last edited:
The main thing that the DB Panther had going for it was that it avoided the lethal shot trap directly in front of the turret. Looking at an artists rendering I don't automatically think T-34. But even if the resulting tank was unable to initially mount the 7.5 cm/L70 gun it still would provided a much needed successor to the Panzer 4 which was nearing the end of it's service life. If it had proven fairly simple to manufacture in large numbers so much the better.
But the political leadership of Nazi Germany seldom made pragmatic choices. Instead throwing resources at over engineered long shot super projects. In the long run the world was better for it.
But the political leadership of Nazi Germany seldom made pragmatic choices. Instead throwing resources at over engineered long shot super projects. In the long run the world was better for it.
Agreed-I hand't thought of the shot trap thing, but you're right that the DB Panther wouldn't have that problem.
Also, I don't think there is much doubt that it would have been easier to mass produce and more reliable. The hull design and internal arrangements were directly inspired by the T-34, and if nothing else it was substantially lighter than OTL Panther.
In 1943 the L48 75mm was still a really good gun capable of killing a T34 (and if it got a side shot at a KV I) at 1000 meters. The L70 was a bit overkill till the JS I came into service. Germany needed tanks to fight 1943 battles and the KWK40 L48 especially if it had Pzgr40 shot was all that was needed.
As usual Germany went for the best tomorrow rather than good enough today.
As usual Germany went for the best tomorrow rather than good enough today.
Ian_W
Banned
You outlined the disadvantage yourself - it was expected to be slower to get into production.
If you push all the Panther availability dates out by, say, another 6 months, then you get the marginally-obsolesent Panzer IV trying to be a battle tank for even longer.
Ian_W
Banned
A fact that we all should be very grateful for, that the Nazi regime was so incompetent that they continued to produce a kind-of-OK-in-1941 model up to the end of the war.
But that's the thing-when you factor in all the teething problems, OTL Panther probably took a lot longer than the DB would have taken to get into service, reliably and in large numbers, assuming as I said in my reply to wiking that they go with the petrol engine and torsion bar suspension. As fastmongrel pointed out, the L48 Panzer IV was still quite serviceable in 1943, and I don't think the delay would be all that problematic.
Don't forget, Panther and MkIV had the same size turret ring. A slightly upsized hull to support the higher weight would have been all that was needed: turret was about two tons heavier between the two.
Was it possible to upsize the Panzer IV more? I thought they tried putting an L/70 on a MkIV hull and found the chassis was overburdened.
It was.
Needed an extra set of roadwheels, lengthen the chassis, similar to the A30 Challenger, 32 ton tank.
Sherman Firefly or 76mm Shermans were 35 ton.
Mk IVG was 25 tons. Hull sizes on the Sherman and Mk IV were similar, roughly 9 ft wide and 19 feet long. Challenger a bit longer.
Really don't need Panther levels of armor either.
We are making progress here. Two other questions-could this enlarged Panzer IV have taken a slightly bigger engine, and could the armor have been sloped? The reason is that as I recall the Panzer IV was not as fast as was wanted as the later variants had to have their armor thickness increased because it wasn't sloped. We are hypothetically supposing that all the design resources of both Panther prototypes are put into this effort. Agree entirely that OTL Panther was over-armored BTW.
Deleted member 1487
Basically we are still on the VK3002 idea of a 35 ton tank, but with high velocity gun, which pushes the weight up. You're not going to see a tank less than 40 tons for either DB or MAN. Which means the internal parts needed to be redesigned to get over the fact that the tank is not the original 30-35 tons that were planned.
Frankly at that point you're better off just mass producing more Pz IVs and creating a Pz III chassis based SP AT gun of the 75mm L70 gun. I had the guys in the alternate AFV thread come up with one, its basically a Marder with a long range 75. It would be a better version of the British Archer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_(tank_destroyer)
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=11476134&postcount=798
Frankly at that point you're better off just mass producing more Pz IVs and creating a Pz III chassis based SP AT gun of the 75mm L70 gun. I had the guys in the alternate AFV thread come up with one, its basically a Marder with a long range 75. It would be a better version of the British Archer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_(tank_destroyer)
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showpost.php?p=11476134&postcount=798
Last edited by a moderator:
Um, I'm not sure about the MAN prototype, but I'm pretty sure that the DB prototype, that is the subject of this thread's OP and which was built, was in the 30 ton range. The new turret for the L/70 gun which is shown on most pictures might cause it to weigh a little more, but I don't see any reason to assume it would be anywhere near 40 tons or more, see marathag's examples above.
Deleted member 1487
It was over 35 tons and with the new turret with heavier gun you're looking at 40 tons easy. Compare the weight of the Pz IV turret to the Panthers and check the size of the turret ring and the mechanism to move that bigger turret.