WI: Cymbro-Saxon?

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

The Aurlings/Auraidh would likely use gold/yellow since this fits their etymology.
There would also be need to distinguish the Anglian Bernicians from the mixed Anglian and Saxon Kent-EastAnglians (Anglo-Saxons!)
Bear in mind that green as an Irish colour is more modern than the traditional blue.

Fair play! Blue Irish Dragons! RAWR!

I'm sorry, but my brain is just filled with awesome images of Dragon-Fleets, just going rawr across the sea. Apparently I've reached full brain failure now.

It'd be cool to see soldiers wearing their regional dragon emblems though. (DRAGON FESTIVALS! Yiiis)

 

[Derek Pullem]

The Irish and the Scots are unlikely to adopt dragons unless they are representative of Cymbric / British overlordship.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

The Irish and the Scots are unlikely to adopt dragons unless they are representative of Cymbric / British overlordship.

https://atlanticreligion.com/2014/06/26/serpents-and-dragons-in-irish-mythology/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_Beast

I get your point. You'd probably have to figure out how to tie them in - perhaps the Irish Dragon is a specific one, one that with the coming of Christ pledged its service, perhaps becoming the name of some nautical phenomenon (Irish Sea currents perhaps?) They do typically get portrayed as nasty, so you might have to rehabilitate one or two.

But the Picts had dragons, you could well have a Cymbric Prince adopt the Pictish Beast as an emblem, perhaps some descendant line of a Pictish King and a Cymbric King. Something to distinguish themselves from the rest of the family/clan or to create a new clan. (Can you do that with clans? Never really given it thought).

 

[piratedude]

Modern" Arthurian Brythain with its division into clans probably won't have personal heraldry per se but Clan and Family/House arms. Individuals would probably have personal emblems but these would, if ever, feature as supporte

Yes i was thinking the same really. Clans would start differentiating themselves in simple ways on the battlefield, mostly to show off, and latter develop into a clan-wise heraldry.

 

[Derek Pullem]

https://atlanticreligion.com/2014/06/26/serpents-and-dragons-in-irish-mythology/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_Beast

I get your point. You'd probably have to figure out how to tie them in - perhaps the Irish Dragon is a specific one, one that with the coming of Christ pledged its service, perhaps becoming the name of some nautical phenomenon (Irish Sea currents perhaps?) They do typically get portrayed as nasty, so you might have to rehabilitate one or two.

But the Picts had dragons, you could well have a Cymbric Prince adopt the Pictish Beast as an emblem, perhaps some descendant line of a Pictish King and a Cymbric King. Something to distinguish themselves from the rest of the family/clan or to create a new clan. (Can you do that with clans? Never really given it thought).

Hmmmm..........seen that described as a lion elsewhere - Irish are also likely to favour lions over dragons. But no one really knows - which is great for ATL.

 

[piratedude]

Considering the deliberate Romanism of an Arthurian Empire the wyvern/dragon (probably known as a drake) will likely be displayed as eagles were, such as the Arms of Algrange:

Hmm, more wyvernesque and eagle like?
Maybe Arthur had something more like this on his shield at mt.Badon:

 

[piratedude]

Oh and as far as the Irish go, I wasn't really planning on the Aurlings going and conquering them. Not that they haven't tried to on occasion, but by the time of the POV, they've learned the value of the soft power they can wield over them. It's the Brythônik Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester) that picks and guides their bishops, and Brythônik merchants that control their largest markets.

And maybe now and then they support an alternate high king than the Ui Niell, if they feel they're getting too big for their britches

 

[Derek Pullem]

Oh and as far as the Irish go, I wasn't really planning on the Aurlings going and conquering them. Not that they haven't tried to on occasion, but by the time of the POV, they've learned the value of the soft power they can wield over them. It's the Brythônik Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester) that picks and guides their bishops, and Brythônik merchants that control their largest markets.

Maybe they go all Hapsburg and marry them into the empire

 

[Derek Pullem]

Hmm, more wyvernesque and eagle like?
Maybe Arthur had something more like this on his shield at mt.Badon:

Is there a reason why you choose black crosses? I have no info to say that black crosses aren't historical, they just don't look very aesthetic to me

 

[The Professor]

Hmm, more wyvernesque and eagle like?
Maybe Arthur had something more like this on his shield at mt.Badon:

The attributed arms - since Arthur would not have had any! - could be the golden drake displayed charged with a cross. Perhaps similar to OTL Silesian Eagle with its crescent-cross collar.

 

[piratedude]

Maybe they go all Hapsburg and marry them into the empire

Certainly, in fact the current queen (in the POV) is irish, from the Eógonachta, who rule Mumhan and currently have the High Kingship (not that it means much), though the Uí Néill dispute their claim

Is there a reason why you choose black crosses? I have no info to say that black crosses aren't historical, they just don't look very aesthetic to me

I just through it together quickly tbh

 

[Droman]

Blue actually works for Ireland just as well as Green.

And I would suggest using animals for each region. A dragon for the Britons, a horse for the Anglo-Saxons, a bull for the Irish and a unicorn or lion for the Scottish.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Blue actually works for Ireland just as well as Green.

And I would suggest using animals for each region. A dragon for the Britons, a horse for the Anglo-Saxons, a bull for the Irish and a unicorn or lion for the Scottish.

For the sake of the TL I'd use unicorns. Get some distance from OTL.

 

[piratedude]

The attributed arms - since Arthur would not have had any! - could be the golden drake displayed charged with a cross. Perhaps similar to OTL Silesian Eagle with its crescent-cross collar.

Like this?

 

[The Professor]

Like this?

Hmm, actually perhaps make it an actual collar and so the cross is hanging down.

 

[The Professor]

Blue actually works for Ireland just as well as Green.

And I would suggest using animals for each region. A dragon for the Britons, a horse for the Anglo-Saxons, a bull for the Irish and a unicorn or lion for the Scottish.

Since there won't be a single AngloSaxon group and the horse is predominantly Saxon I would suggest another symbol for the Bernicians. The horse or variant could work for the Kent-EastAngles if Kent was the dominant faction but the Bernicians are properly Angle and would use something else perhaps an ArchAngel or Eagle.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Since there won't be a single AngloSaxon group and the horse is predominantly Saxon I would suggest another symbol for the Bernicians. The horse or variant could work for the Kent-EastAngles if Kent was the dominant faction but the Bernicians are properly Angle and would use something else perhaps an ArchAngel or Eagle.

This does touch on the distinct likelihood of a far larger number of distinct cultural groups. Cymbro-Cumbrics, Cymbro-Saxons, Cymbro-Angles. (Cymbro-Jutes?)

Interesting, I wonder how this would impact the development of the Isles.

 

[piratedude]

This does touch on the distinct likelihood of a far larger number of distinct cultural groups. Cymbro-Cumbrics, Cymbro-Saxons, Cymbro-Angles. (Cymbro-Jutes?)

Interesting, I wonder how this would impact the development of the Isles.

I can discuss the groups and their relationships as they are in 800, if that'll help?

 

[The Professor]

This does touch on the distinct likelihood of a far larger number of distinct cultural groups. Cymbro-Cumbrics, Cymbro-Saxons, Cymbro-Angles. (Cymbro-Jutes?)

Interesting, I wonder how this would impact the development of the Isles.

There was a large number OTL anyway.
Cymru has the same root as Cumbria - kombrogis from kombrogos compatriot - and was a northern term. The Britons in the south tended towards derivatives of Briton.
The Germanics early on can be divided into 2 or 3 groups - Angles (themselves divided north and south of the Humber), Saxons (along the south coast), and Jutes (likely Frankish influenced Saxons). The more western Saxons who founded Wessex eventually had their own distinct dialect whereas the eastern Saxons and Jutes ended speaking a version of Anglian (it's a bit more complex than that but essentially language wise there's West Saxon and then dialects of Anglian.
TTL West Saxon won't really form, unless diverted to the French coast, but the south east coast is sufficiently separate from the north east to maintain a linguistic difference from northern Anglian. Two dialects of the southeast would probably be recognised roughly corresponding to OTL Kentish and East Anglian.

 

[piratedude]

Generally, I've split the Anglo-Saxons into three groups.

Those in the Southeast are generally referred to as the dûîreinwir (easterner, lit. East-men)
by the Brythônys, though they themselves don't think of being one people. They've settled down and are "Brythonizing", mixing with the more dominant Brythonic culture while retaining some uniquely Germanic customs and such. The Aurlings plan is to "civilize" them and then bring them into the fold, which will be marked by letting their Kynnings to participate in the senâdh(the Senate, which elects the next Âlt Rî). That's still off a generation or two in the POV.

Those in the Northeast are the Anglonik, a regular concern for the the Brythôns and Cumbrians alike. They were the last of the Anglo-Saxons to convert to Christianity, doing so only three generations ago (officially at least), and only after being decisively beaten in battle. They're generally viewed as half tamed barbarians by the Brythônys.

Thirdly, there are the Seisnik, a derogatory Brythônik name for those Germanic peoples that are slaves and bondsmen in Brythain. The term is used irrespective of whether they actually are descendants of Saxon tribes, or even if they're Anglo-Saxons.