@piratedude yeah that sounds good, just so we arent doing things because "oh this is a people, they should have a church" then all is good.
WI: Cymbro-Saxon?
- Thread starter piratedude
- Start date
Moving away from godly matters, any suggestions for clan or family names?
So far there's only two mentioned by name, the Auriadh (Aurlings), and the Coîl(Coelings), although I mentioned the founders of two others; Anûn in Dyved (Dyfed), and Gûtheyrn(vortigurn) in Powis(powys)
So far there's only two mentioned by name, the Auriadh (Aurlings), and the Coîl(Coelings), although I mentioned the founders of two others; Anûn in Dyved (Dyfed), and Gûtheyrn(vortigurn) in Powis(powys)
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Clan names are probably the easiest, just think of things like White Lion, 3 Trees, or Black Ambrose, and translate them into Brythonek.
(Lheuguin, Tricoid, Embrystu I think / Llewgwyn, Trichoed, Emrysdu)
(Lheuguin, Tricoid, Embrystu I think / Llewgwyn, Trichoed, Emrysdu)
And if you do end up selecting OTL Arthurian characters to "establish" noble families, you could start with the earlier examples like Kay, Tristan or Gawain and translate them to Brythonik. E.g. "Breicryviad" for Karadok "Strongarm", or Kay "Kyvatebol" for his belligerent nature, leading to the development of clan names down the line.
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Heyyy, servers are back up!
So i got to thinking that i should talk more about Brythain's situation at home. As previously mentioned, the organization of Bythain is thus:
Âlt Rî, the Pendefigs (princes) of the various luîth(clans) and Cynnings of the three Englisc "tribes" below him, and below them are dirprûy(deputies) and great thegns.
The pendefigs select the next Âlt Rî in the senâdh, and in turn, each time a pendefig or cynning dies, the Âlt Ri chooses a new one from their clan/tribe (usually sons, but not always).
The dirprûy and great thanes are basically the lieutenants of their prince/king. They are selected by the prince/king with the Âlt Rî's approval.
So i got to thinking that i should talk more about Brythain's situation at home. As previously mentioned, the organization of Bythain is thus:
Âlt Rî, the Pendefigs (princes) of the various luîth(clans) and Cynnings of the three Englisc "tribes" below him, and below them are dirprûy(deputies) and great thegns.
The pendefigs select the next Âlt Rî in the senâdh, and in turn, each time a pendefig or cynning dies, the Âlt Ri chooses a new one from their clan/tribe (usually sons, but not always).
The dirprûy and great thanes are basically the lieutenants of their prince/king. They are selected by the prince/king with the Âlt Rî's approval.
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I could see that evolving into a parliamentary system given enough time.
Story bit
I also worked a bit on the story proper while the servers were down. Tell me what you guys think
803 Anno Domine, Eve of Christ’s mass(Julian calander)
Charles had to admit to himself that he was having a good time. He had been nervous to go where his father bid him. He was to go to Brythain; to cross that godforsaken sea, to go into the dragon’s lair, to bow before the Drakeseat, and spend a whole year there. He knew personally just how willey that dragon could be, and had pleaded to stay. But his father and emperor said goeth, and goeth he did.
The beginning of his stay in Brythain had been spent in fear. He imagined hired knives behind the curtains, poised to strike him unawares. So he had his guards stand watch as he slept, within and without his chambers. He feared too the cunning of poisons, thus he ate and drank only that which his host partook of. But after months without even one attempt on his life, and the dragon being nothing less than a gracious host, he was forced to admit that his one time foe thought more highly of him than he did likewise. So this Christmas eve, he had taken on the expenses of the feast, as recompense for his ill behaviour. As usual, Leûn took it in stride, and directed him to his chamberlain, an englisc man by the name of Eadgar.
Haw-wine, honey-wine, and brown beers were brought from all over Brythain. Hogs and cows, geese and deer were to be butchered, and even fruits from Córdoba had found their way into the larder. Truly, it was a spread worthy of emperors. And that wasn't even accounting for the expense of the performers and decorations! All told, he felt he had spent enough to feed and garland an entire kingdom. Thinking back to the celebrations in Rome, after his father was made Augustus, he shuddered at what the bishop of Rome must have spent.
803 Anno Domine, Eve of Christ’s mass(Julian calander)
Charles had to admit to himself that he was having a good time. He had been nervous to go where his father bid him. He was to go to Brythain; to cross that godforsaken sea, to go into the dragon’s lair, to bow before the Drakeseat, and spend a whole year there. He knew personally just how willey that dragon could be, and had pleaded to stay. But his father and emperor said goeth, and goeth he did.
The beginning of his stay in Brythain had been spent in fear. He imagined hired knives behind the curtains, poised to strike him unawares. So he had his guards stand watch as he slept, within and without his chambers. He feared too the cunning of poisons, thus he ate and drank only that which his host partook of. But after months without even one attempt on his life, and the dragon being nothing less than a gracious host, he was forced to admit that his one time foe thought more highly of him than he did likewise. So this Christmas eve, he had taken on the expenses of the feast, as recompense for his ill behaviour. As usual, Leûn took it in stride, and directed him to his chamberlain, an englisc man by the name of Eadgar.
Haw-wine, honey-wine, and brown beers were brought from all over Brythain. Hogs and cows, geese and deer were to be butchered, and even fruits from Córdoba had found their way into the larder. Truly, it was a spread worthy of emperors. And that wasn't even accounting for the expense of the performers and decorations! All told, he felt he had spent enough to feed and garland an entire kingdom. Thinking back to the celebrations in Rome, after his father was made Augustus, he shuddered at what the bishop of Rome must have spent.
The charles thats the POV charater above would be charles of ingelheim, son of charlemagne, and prospective heir to the Empire
Interesting. World-building in the POD and the actual story taking place in a later time period, with relatively few changes occurring on the continent in the meanwhile, is a clever move. Not one I recall seeing on this forum yet.
Bah. A properly functioning elective monarcy, which Tanistry is a very interesting variant of, is (at least on paper) superior to any true democracy.
A democratically elected leader's success and personal wealth derive solely from meeting short-term goals. Certainly, a benevolent, intelligent and forward-thinking elected leader may make some decisions which are good in the long term, but such people are much less likely to be ambitious enough to stand for the top job compared to those who are merely power-hungry. They might even be unpopular because of taking these decisions, since the people have come to expect to see short-term benefits from the decisions of politicans. There is also nothing stopping from political rivals to overturning or derailing a long-term plan once they come into office, in all probablity rendering all the effort and resources that went into the program insofar a waste.
A monarch has a lot of incentive to value long-term goals and stability over immediate gratification and praise. Remove the possibility of incompetent, insane and outright inbred monarchs, build some form of government structure that ensures that the monarch cannot act as an autocrat and must consider the will of the second and third estate and monarchy works very well indeed.
Bah. A properly functioning elective monarcy, which Tanistry is a very interesting variant of, is (at least on paper) superior to any true democracy.
A democratically elected leader's success and personal wealth derive solely from meeting short-term goals. Certainly, a benevolent, intelligent and forward-thinking elected leader may make some decisions which are good in the long term, but such people are much less likely to be ambitious enough to stand for the top job compared to those who are merely power-hungry. They might even be unpopular because of taking these decisions, since the people have come to expect to see short-term benefits from the decisions of politicans. There is also nothing stopping from political rivals to overturning or derailing a long-term plan once they come into office, in all probablity rendering all the effort and resources that went into the program insofar a waste.
A monarch has a lot of incentive to value long-term goals and stability over immediate gratification and praise. Remove the possibility of incompetent, insane and outright inbred monarchs, build some form of government structure that ensures that the monarch cannot act as an autocrat and must consider the will of the second and third estate and monarchy works very well indeed.
Thanks!
As per the democracy v monarchy debate, as far as the medieval period is concerned, elected monarchs are about as good as you're going to get on the large scale.
That, among other things, make the Aurlings much more preferable rulers than the Carolingians
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Just playing around a bit, made a flag, either for Brythain as a whole, or just a royal flag
Isn't that a bit anachronistic - could see that being the eventual flag of the nation but in the time period we are talking about the Draco standard itself would be the most obvious symbol of nationhood.
Also you shouldn't put a yellow (gold) cross on top of a white (silver) background in OTL heraldry - maybe simplify it by having the background to the flag yellow and the black cross thicker?
Or change the black cross to red?
Also you shouldn't put a yellow (gold) cross on top of a white (silver) background in OTL heraldry - maybe simplify it by having the background to the flag yellow and the black cross thicker?
Or change the black cross to red?
Definitely anachronistic.
Heraldry arose from personal emblems used to distinguish combatants becoming hereditary and then restricted to less and less individuals.
Flags are based on the wider usage of personal and family banners based on heraldic and nonheraldic emblems.
The Dragon as a symbol of Britain/Wales though believed to have its origins in Roman Britain does not take its modern appearance until around the time after Llewellyn the Great. Early dragons were more like wyverns - see the traditional emblem of Wessex.
Considering the deliberate Romanism of an Arthurian Empire the wyvern/dragon (probably known as a drake) will likely be displayed as eagles were, such as the Arms of Algrange:
"Modern" Arthurian Brythain with its division into clans probably won't have personal heraldry per se but Clan and Family/House arms. Individuals would probably have personal emblems but these would, if ever, feature as supporters and crests and not on shields.
I see the Emperor of Britain as bearing Arms in similar style to the HRE, an escutcheon upon the imperial arms. Whether House or Clan or both may vary across time.
Heraldry arose from personal emblems used to distinguish combatants becoming hereditary and then restricted to less and less individuals.
Flags are based on the wider usage of personal and family banners based on heraldic and nonheraldic emblems.
The Dragon as a symbol of Britain/Wales though believed to have its origins in Roman Britain does not take its modern appearance until around the time after Llewellyn the Great. Early dragons were more like wyverns - see the traditional emblem of Wessex.
Considering the deliberate Romanism of an Arthurian Empire the wyvern/dragon (probably known as a drake) will likely be displayed as eagles were, such as the Arms of Algrange:
"Modern" Arthurian Brythain with its division into clans probably won't have personal heraldry per se but Clan and Family/House arms. Individuals would probably have personal emblems but these would, if ever, feature as supporters and crests and not on shields.
I see the Emperor of Britain as bearing Arms in similar style to the HRE, an escutcheon upon the imperial arms. Whether House or Clan or both may vary across time.
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I was mucking around at one point and I think a flag would work quite well if you used Dragons to stand for the different peoples of the British Isles.
Green Irish Dragon (I dunno if there is an Irish dragon, so... green)
White Anglo-Saxon Dragon
Red Welsh Dragon
Blue Scottish Dragon (I can't remember why)
Which does mean you can have the awesome flag of four dragons if you unite the isles at any one point
I'm a big fan of Dragon iconography, and to be honest, in this timeline there is probably good cause to have a Coeling/Cumbric Dragon alongside the four I mentioned above, with the Aurling taking the Red, or using a different colour altogether.
The Aurlings/Auraidh would likely use gold/yellow since this fits their etymology.
There would also be need to distinguish the Anglian Bernicians from the mixed Anglian and Saxon Kent-EastAnglians (Anglo-Saxons!)
Bear in mind that green as an Irish colour is more modern than the traditional blue.
Yes, its more supposes to be a modern descendant of older symbols/emblems
I did try and fiddle with having five dragons, with the golden one representing the Aurling monarchy. I couldn't make the color scheme work though.
The blue dragon could represent the Gaels rather than *Scotland ITTL. Leaving the green dragon free for some other group.