Right. It took bit of fiddling for me to fix my own drawing, but it's fixed.
WI: Cymbro-Saxon?
- Thread starter piratedude
- Start date
34
So I've been having a think, and I have a few thoughts I want your opinions on.
Brythain is divided among the Lûith and Cynn (British clans and their A-S equivalent), the leaders of whom are chosen by the Âlt Rî. Those leaders select deputies with the Âlt Rî's approval. As has been said previously
The clans are further divided by class; Nobles (from whom the leaders are picked), freemen (who often serve as deputies), bondsmen, and slaves. Rough ratio I'm thinking of is 1:8:10:4. The bondsmen and slaves are split fairly evenly between freemen and nobles.
The clan leaders and their deputies are responsible for the administration of law and justice. A bondsman can appeal a deputy's decisions to the leader, and freemen can further appeal to the Âlt Rî himself, if he can bear the time and expense.
Clan leaders are also responsible for ensuring that the freemen are armed and trained for military service for at least a few months in a year, and bondsmen at least one day in a year.
For the military, I was thinking that near every man are mounted infantry, and that the Brythônys specifically keep small and strong ponies to do accomplish this (like Exmoor or Dartmoor), setting aside large chunks of land for the herds.
I was also thinking that a rather large portion of their army could be archers. I don't know if the 7th-8th century are too early for "welsh" longbows to become a common unit, though I don't think it's beyond their ken to do it. And given that armor is fairly uncommon for the majority of the armies in this period, they should be reasonably effective. and even against mail, a powerful enough bow with the right head can get through.
Brythain is divided among the Lûith and Cynn (British clans and their A-S equivalent), the leaders of whom are chosen by the Âlt Rî. Those leaders select deputies with the Âlt Rî's approval. As has been said previously
The clans are further divided by class; Nobles (from whom the leaders are picked), freemen (who often serve as deputies), bondsmen, and slaves. Rough ratio I'm thinking of is 1:8:10:4. The bondsmen and slaves are split fairly evenly between freemen and nobles.
The clan leaders and their deputies are responsible for the administration of law and justice. A bondsman can appeal a deputy's decisions to the leader, and freemen can further appeal to the Âlt Rî himself, if he can bear the time and expense.
Clan leaders are also responsible for ensuring that the freemen are armed and trained for military service for at least a few months in a year, and bondsmen at least one day in a year.
For the military, I was thinking that near every man are mounted infantry, and that the Brythônys specifically keep small and strong ponies to do accomplish this (like Exmoor or Dartmoor), setting aside large chunks of land for the herds.
I was also thinking that a rather large portion of their army could be archers. I don't know if the 7th-8th century are too early for "welsh" longbows to become a common unit, though I don't think it's beyond their ken to do it. And given that armor is fairly uncommon for the majority of the armies in this period, they should be reasonably effective. and even against mail, a powerful enough bow with the right head can get through.
Another thought, both the A-S and the native Celts had a professional poet tradition: Celtic bards, and A-S Scops. In both traditions, they were specific positions of a Lord's court. So the question is, to what extent would these traditions clash and merge?
35
I imagine that a Briton army would have a heavy focus on archers, light cavalry, slingers and spearsmen in any eventually. The Angles, Jutes and Saxons would provide heavy infantry and ships, of course. As regarding a strong cavalry component... You might want to perhaps include something of a Roman or Sarmatian nature to flesh it out. Or perhaps you could take a step beyond, and merge the archers, slingers and cavalry into missile cavalry?
Were slingers still a thing in the medieval era? I thought that by then they dropped out of military use. Otherwise I agree with you.
Staff slingers were. But I suspect you'd see mostly javelins and archers in a sub-roman British army. You might be able to retain mounted archers from the roman roots but its a stretch.
One of the technological advances of the Brythônys was the innovation of using potash in the glass making process, allowing them to make finer glassware than their christian counterparts on the continent, though they were still of lower quality than that which was produced in the Levant. This remained a closely guarded trade secret for nearly four centuries.
An example of Brythônik glass
An example of Brythônik glass
36
So before this thread is completely dead, I want to brainstorm a bit more about the Insular/Celtic church.
I was thinking that instead of tracing their origin to Joseph of Arimathea, they claim st. Aristobulus as their founder.
Joseph wasn't connected to Britain until the 11th century or so, while Aristobulus is reportedly the first bishop of Britain. Aristobulus would have been ordained by st.Peter, then sent to Britain.
I'm thinking giving most of the myths attributed to Joseph to Aristobulus in general, such creating the chapel at Glastonbury, and his walking stick turning into a miraculous tree.
Actually, I was kinda thinking of making said tree, the Glastonbury thorn, even more prominent.
The tree flowers twice a year, around Christmas, and again around easter. I'm thinking that it could play a part in the easter controversy.
Every bishopric gets their own whitethorn tree, from which the bishops' staff is made, except the Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester), who's staff comes from the Glastonbury thorn.
I was thinking that instead of tracing their origin to Joseph of Arimathea, they claim st. Aristobulus as their founder.
Joseph wasn't connected to Britain until the 11th century or so, while Aristobulus is reportedly the first bishop of Britain. Aristobulus would have been ordained by st.Peter, then sent to Britain.
I'm thinking giving most of the myths attributed to Joseph to Aristobulus in general, such creating the chapel at Glastonbury, and his walking stick turning into a miraculous tree.
Actually, I was kinda thinking of making said tree, the Glastonbury thorn, even more prominent.
The tree flowers twice a year, around Christmas, and again around easter. I'm thinking that it could play a part in the easter controversy.
Every bishopric gets their own whitethorn tree, from which the bishops' staff is made, except the Archbishop of Kaerloîu (Gloucester), who's staff comes from the Glastonbury thorn.
True, though Britain is far from the only place with such dubious practices.
Possibly, though I feel that he'll never be top dog in terms of venerated saints, if only because he didn't do that much (not that it was his fault).
Speaking of saints, I'm debating whether Arthur should be sainted or not. It's not hard to set him up as a moral exemplar in dark times, he lived in Brythain's darkest hour, and singlehandedly put an end to the barbarian's expansion.
Its not much of a streatch to add converting those barbarians, and guaranteed the protection of missionaries among the A-S.
The problem is that I feel that if I did canonize him, I'd be wanking the Brythônys(britons) too much.
37
That vid actually functions well as a segue to the situation in the north.
A quick reminder map:
The Kingdom of Bernicia (Anglisc: Beornice Rīce), is the last independent germanic kingdom in the isles. Bordering generally hostile neighbours, it has taken quite a bit of military acumen, and no small measure of fortune, to stay that way. Their "capital" is in Dunham (OTL Durham), given it's relative size and security. Eforwic is technically more fortified, but the city has changed hands between them and Brythain too often to truly be considered secure, and Bebbanbruh, while their cultural heartland, has little natural defense against their most feared foes, the Gododdins. Despite their territorial similarities, they are not the same as OTL Northumberia, as the Angles' attempt to form a kingdom in Deira were thwarted by Âlt Rî Andras (the 3rd Âlt Rî of Brythain, and grandson of Arthur) , thus they didn't have another kingdom to unite with.
The kingdom of Rheged. They have a proud history, and their ruling family are the Ap'Urien Coîl (Sons of Urien the Coîling). As you might have noticed by their name, they are influenced by their powerful neighbours/allies/trade partners, the Brythônys and the Irish. Rheged used to be much larger and more powerful, but not long after Urien died, he split his kingdom among his sons, as per the old brittonic custom. The son who ruled the southern portion joined Brythain, while the northern son remained independent. Though the split was peaceful, and relations between the kingdom and Brythain as a whole have been and remain prosperous, there's always been a lingering animosity between the northern and southern Ap'Uriens. Their capital is the 2nd largest trading post on the irish sea, Caerlun (Lancaster).
The Kingdom of Rhinnydd. Or the kingdom of the Rhinns, who's capital is in Penrhyn (the first/chief Rhinn, OTL stranraer), is a Dal Riatan puppet state, Although once it was the mighty kingdom of Altclud. A combination of Gododdin expansion and Dal Riata's interests in the region has produced their current state. Culturally and linguistically they remain Cumbric, it's just that politically the Irish hold them by the balls, literally. The high king of Dal Riata has the Son of Rhinnydd's king locked up in the fortress of Dùn At.
A quick reminder map:
The Kingdom of Bernicia (Anglisc: Beornice Rīce), is the last independent germanic kingdom in the isles. Bordering generally hostile neighbours, it has taken quite a bit of military acumen, and no small measure of fortune, to stay that way. Their "capital" is in Dunham (OTL Durham), given it's relative size and security. Eforwic is technically more fortified, but the city has changed hands between them and Brythain too often to truly be considered secure, and Bebbanbruh, while their cultural heartland, has little natural defense against their most feared foes, the Gododdins. Despite their territorial similarities, they are not the same as OTL Northumberia, as the Angles' attempt to form a kingdom in Deira were thwarted by Âlt Rî Andras (the 3rd Âlt Rî of Brythain, and grandson of Arthur) , thus they didn't have another kingdom to unite with.
The kingdom of Rheged. They have a proud history, and their ruling family are the Ap'Urien Coîl (Sons of Urien the Coîling). As you might have noticed by their name, they are influenced by their powerful neighbours/allies/trade partners, the Brythônys and the Irish. Rheged used to be much larger and more powerful, but not long after Urien died, he split his kingdom among his sons, as per the old brittonic custom. The son who ruled the southern portion joined Brythain, while the northern son remained independent. Though the split was peaceful, and relations between the kingdom and Brythain as a whole have been and remain prosperous, there's always been a lingering animosity between the northern and southern Ap'Uriens. Their capital is the 2nd largest trading post on the irish sea, Caerlun (Lancaster).
The Kingdom of Rhinnydd. Or the kingdom of the Rhinns, who's capital is in Penrhyn (the first/chief Rhinn, OTL stranraer), is a Dal Riatan puppet state, Although once it was the mighty kingdom of Altclud. A combination of Gododdin expansion and Dal Riata's interests in the region has produced their current state. Culturally and linguistically they remain Cumbric, it's just that politically the Irish hold them by the balls, literally. The high king of Dal Riata has the Son of Rhinnydd's king locked up in the fortress of Dùn At.
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True enough, the canonization process hasn't been formalized yet by the time of the POV. Local saints that weren't yet recognized by the rest of the church was common
I don't know if you are aware of this timeline but it's relevant to your setting.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/northumbria-more-successful.308850/