I don't think we can directly compare the mindset of a commoner in post Roman Europe to a commoner in post Jìn (not the Jurchen Jin) China. Plus, when this is a thing that happened what? More than 8 times? (The Xianbei Northern, Eastern and Western Wei, Xibei-Han Northern Qi, the Khitan Liao, the Jurchen Jīn, the Mongols, the Qing etc etc). It's hard to not see a pattern here. The largest cultural change the Mongols, and to an extent the Qing had on China was probably Mandarin becoming the dominant language in China, and that's really not enough to break up China. Something more drastic and earlier, like the Han (as in the people, not the dynasty) breaking up into warring factions while losing even a symbolic central authority like the Zhou Emperors before the concept of a Han nation solidifies for at least 4 or 5 centuries is needed.
WI: Culturally Diverse China
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The survival of the Byzantine Empire after being assaulted by and then assimilating Goths and Huns and Slavs and Bulgars and Cumans and Khazars and a shitload of other peoples but remaining essentially the same culture can provide a possibility to how.
*waves around the tattered standard of the Argeads followed by the thousand banners of Tocharians and Turkmen and Mongols passing through Northern China for loot and plunder under the employ of various Huaxia kingdoms*
The last 2 conquerors conquered all of China, that woudln´t work.
I still am highly skeptical of all those claims that say "you can have China divided after *insert very early time period there*", it seems to get shoved always earlier and earlier, most notably Jin fell in 420, analogous to the Roman Empire, even existing less than that.
Also I would really like to see if some historians try to undermine this romanitzation of Chinese history like many did for western history, most notably is the fact that like most narratives the idea of China didn´t always exist or not as a perpetual unchanged idea that was always strong on the mind of everyone(the Romance of the 3 Kingdoms was written during the Yuan and Ming Dynasty after all).
If you have enough people even when you loose you win.Massive population solves every problem
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China is remarkably diverse in a way that is difficult to describe to people who have been denizens of first world nations, knitted together by rail and telegraph for a century and a half, radio and car for a century, and TV and airplane for 70 years for their whole lives. These technologies only began affecting China, to the extent that pronunciation began to standardize and similar changes to take place, in the past 30 years.
While it's true that 90%+ of the nation are of the Han ethnicity, that classification means about as much as "white" did in the US in 1900; that is to say, it is defined negatively, as the state of not being of any particular, narrowly-defined minority group, and thus, like "white" in the US a century ago, covers truly vast cultural and regional divides. Heck, "Han" Chinese from Guangzhou and "Han" Chinese from Heilongjiang look just as different or more so from one another as they do from most of the minority groups, on average of course. So to say that China would be more diverse if it were less dominated by the Han majority is questionable; that majority didn't arise through genocide or ethnic cleansing but through assimilation on a grand scale, and that process was very much a two-way one.
That said, if you want a more diverse China, one with a much smaller Han majority, without fracturing the country as a whole unrecognizably, IMO the best POD would be to preempt the Han Southern expeditions between 140 and 100 BCE. The Yue peoples of the region were more primitive than China and would inevitably still be drawn into the cultural orbit of a Han Dynasty whose territory proper was confined to the traditional Han heartlands and peripheral territories to the north and west. If the region's peoples follow a tributary relationship, which is likely, that territory (modern South China) will still be brought under direct control whenever an outside people invades and conquers China from the north (the Mongols and Manchus both directly administered many regions which the Song and Ming had considered tributaries, not territories), which means that it will likely be part of China by the modern era, but it will be a more diverse region occupied by larger proportions of non-Sinified and semi-Sinified people, as are Tibet, Xinjiang, and to some extent Inner Mongolia today. However, because South China can and will support much higher population densities, it will much more dramatically affect the demographics of the country as a whole compared to the northern periphery IOTL.
While it's true that 90%+ of the nation are of the Han ethnicity, that classification means about as much as "white" did in the US in 1900; that is to say, it is defined negatively, as the state of not being of any particular, narrowly-defined minority group, and thus, like "white" in the US a century ago, covers truly vast cultural and regional divides. Heck, "Han" Chinese from Guangzhou and "Han" Chinese from Heilongjiang look just as different or more so from one another as they do from most of the minority groups, on average of course. So to say that China would be more diverse if it were less dominated by the Han majority is questionable; that majority didn't arise through genocide or ethnic cleansing but through assimilation on a grand scale, and that process was very much a two-way one.
That said, if you want a more diverse China, one with a much smaller Han majority, without fracturing the country as a whole unrecognizably, IMO the best POD would be to preempt the Han Southern expeditions between 140 and 100 BCE. The Yue peoples of the region were more primitive than China and would inevitably still be drawn into the cultural orbit of a Han Dynasty whose territory proper was confined to the traditional Han heartlands and peripheral territories to the north and west. If the region's peoples follow a tributary relationship, which is likely, that territory (modern South China) will still be brought under direct control whenever an outside people invades and conquers China from the north (the Mongols and Manchus both directly administered many regions which the Song and Ming had considered tributaries, not territories), which means that it will likely be part of China by the modern era, but it will be a more diverse region occupied by larger proportions of non-Sinified and semi-Sinified people, as are Tibet, Xinjiang, and to some extent Inner Mongolia today. However, because South China can and will support much higher population densities, it will much more dramatically affect the demographics of the country as a whole compared to the northern periphery IOTL.
China was still 'unified' culturally in the sense that the state were originally vassals of Zhou and observed Zhou rites.
Honestly, this is OTL. Grouping people by language still isn't enough to describe diversity in China. Culture, cuisine, lifestyle, beliefs etc. can be quite different from one part of China to another. It has never really operated under our Western concepts of nationstates, and technically even today breaks those rules.
Cultural diversity in China is great indeed, as many have pointed out.
If what the OP aims for - and the hints at prehistorical cultural horizons may hint in that direction - is "diversity of civilizations in the geographical space we call China IOTL", then indeed that would be something else and you`d need a very early PoD, but I wouldn`t say it´s impossible. OTL basically has three major models (empires of steppe nomads; civilizations of the mountains (e.g. Tibet); and finally the imperial model we tend to associate with China, the one which remained dominant and influenced or absorbed the other ones. I think a plausible fourth option would be a thalassocratic civilization if, for example, the already-mentioned Liangzhu had survived and spawned its own continuity-expansion-and-intensification development.
If what the OP aims for - and the hints at prehistorical cultural horizons may hint in that direction - is "diversity of civilizations in the geographical space we call China IOTL", then indeed that would be something else and you`d need a very early PoD, but I wouldn`t say it´s impossible. OTL basically has three major models (empires of steppe nomads; civilizations of the mountains (e.g. Tibet); and finally the imperial model we tend to associate with China, the one which remained dominant and influenced or absorbed the other ones. I think a plausible fourth option would be a thalassocratic civilization if, for example, the already-mentioned Liangzhu had survived and spawned its own continuity-expansion-and-intensification development.
This is was I was looking for, yes. Not necessarily a huge empire with a diverse population, since that's more or less OTL, as it was already said by other posters, but different cultures in the *China* region that consider themselves as different as, say Egypt and the Ancient Greeks, instead of belonging to a single civilization.
Could Tibet host a dominant civilization?
Excellent post.
How would a Yue civilization would look like, in your opinion? I can't find any good sources on them, and contemporary Chinese seem to regard them as tribal barbarians, so there's not much info on them. Would the civilizations of Southeast Asia be a good comparison?
Dominant? It certainly dominated the Southern Tarim Basin at some point in history, and it exerted influence both on Dali and on the upper Brahmaputra region.
More dominant would be precariously subversive for the core of the model, since it greatly differed from the only other mountain-based civilization I know of, i.e. that of the Andes. But if you`re fine with an unrecognisable alt-Tibet... I just wouldn`t be able to qualify it in any further way.
A certain amount of empire-building would be necessary for any rivalling civilization in this sphere in order to avoid the Central Plains-derived hegemony. A thalassocracy should comprise, for example, Taiwan, the Philippines, Vietnam, parts of OTL Malaysia and Indonesia. Otherwise it´s either not going to resist an alt-Han Southern campaign, or it´s going to be the conqueror itself but then assimilate into the post-Shang model. Staying different requires unalterable substantial differences on all levels, from economy and society over political structure to religion.
Those of inland groups (Lan Xang, Lan Na) maybe; for an earlier version, maybe Dali, although the degree of its difference is unclear to me. We can`t tell for certain because ethnicity (Yue) is not a reliable predictor for the outcome.
Honestly, you need more stronger polities earlier. A strong unique Pearl River Civilisation, (Keep Korea), more divisions in the North China plain (i.e. increased use of the river as a defensive frontier like the Rhine).
That is fundamentally what you need - more polities that keep themselves divided, and with enough players on the scene to actively work to prevent any others from dominating.
That is fundamentally what you need - more polities that keep themselves divided, and with enough players on the scene to actively work to prevent any others from dominating.
Yep...but no at the same time too. IIRC, mixed descendants of minorities and Hans get to choose their ethnicity. Therefore, many hannified minorities also exploit the system and their status as minorities to gain benefits that Hans would not. So actual figures are probably lower than 8%.
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The problem with the Yellow River is that it freezes over during winter and armies can walk over it.
Yes, but you must keep in mind, China was shattered just about every two-three centuries. Hell, the last time China completely collapsed was less than 100 years ago. Even today, depending on your views regarding the ROC, it still (technically) is. With the notable exception of the territories controlled by the ROC/Taibei Government, the vast majority of it considers itself Chinese.
If you want a post-Zhou/post-Qin lasting political split in China, there are options, however unlikely or problematic they may be. Most of them involve chunks of China being conquered by other nations, and moved into their cultural/political spheres.
I always thought this fragmentation was the whole point of these sorts of threads.
I don't see a post-Zhou split to be too difficult, or problematic. All you need to do is keep the balance of powers between the various kingdoms balanced enough that none of them bother expanding into the others, instead assimilating other cultures and seeing themselves more as men of Yan or Qin or Chu than Huaxia. Perhaps putting atrocities and bad blood between them would help, making the kingdoms each see the rest as implacable rivals utterly devoted to destroying their way of life.
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Anyway, that Liangzhu culture sounds interesting. And it was linked to Austronesian and Tai-Kadai peoples, so that's also a thing.
The idea of a Han ethnicity is a 20th century construct invented by Sun Yat Sen. The reason for the "five races in one nation" excercise was for nation building purposes, China didn't exist under a nation state basis before the revolution. In fact, before the idea of Han ethnicity became wide spread, China was incredibly ethnically diverse. The process of Sinification was not ethno-cultural but a civilising mission with a philosophical bent. To thinkers like Confucius or even Han Fei all people were equal under heaven, it was merely the misfortune of those outside The Middle Kingdom to be without the guidance of a sage ruler. Of course, even in China the notion of sage king eventually corrupted from a public spirited civil servant to absolute monarch. Tangent aside, barbarian in the Chinese lexicon has a completely different meaning to the same term derived from the Greeks. Essentially, all under heaven (being the polity we call imperial China) are equal; thus, ethnic distinctions are irrelevant.
China was and still is more ethnically diverse than it lets on. It was the concept of all under heaven and non majority rule that kept ethnic divisions from destroying the empire.
China was and still is more ethnically diverse than it lets on. It was the concept of all under heaven and non majority rule that kept ethnic divisions from destroying the empire.