WI - Cripps doesn’t agree to provide Nene engines, or technical data, to the Soviets in 1946

ric350 · May 25, 2023

In 1946 the British government was approached by the Soviet, to have Soviet technicians visit England to receive technical data on the Rolls Royce Nene engine (for building under license) as well as some completed engines. President of 5he board of trade, Stafford Cripps (formally Minister of Aircraft Production), whole heartedly agreed, and the deal was struck. Ultimately leading to the development of the MiG-15.

What if Cripps decided this was a bad idea, and the Soviet mission to Britain, as well as the sale of the Nene, never occurred? Would this force the Soviets to continue the development of the Jumo 004 (as well as other German jet engines), and ultimately result in them producing a reliable axial flow engine, and a correspondingly more aerodynamic airframe, for an alternate
“MiG-15”? Also would this give an advantage to subsequent Soviet jet designs, as they would not have spent time on the centrifugal engine “detour” the West embarked on?

ric350

sdgottsch · May 25, 2023

I think then the Soviet Union would continue with developing the Klimov RD-500 from the unlicensed copy of the Rolls-Royce Derwent V engine.

DougM · May 25, 2023

He does not heed to decide it was a bad idea he just needs to recognize how bad an Idea it was.
And more then a few Pilots that died fighting Mig-15s would still be around. And the knock on effect may have delayed other russian aircraft as they have to wait for engines to be designed because they didnt get a jump start ftom the Nene.

Riain · May 25, 2023

The French Atar developed from data gathered from the BMW 018 and 003, a good engine that was being fitted to new aircraft in the 1980s.

The Soviets put the Jumo 004 and BMW 003 into production postwar. If they don't have access to the Nene and Derwent it will be a significant setback. but they will still have the German jets both to use in production from the late 40s and as a basis to develop better engines.

Nell_Lucifer · May 25, 2023

Well, then the Soviets will continue what they already have in production/development.

The RD-10F, latest Jumo 004 with an afterburner and ~30% increase in thrust.

RD-20F, similar for the BMW 003.

TW-1 (?) Which is the Jumo 012B - of similar performance to the Nene engine though longer and heavier.

And finally the Lyulka TR-1A/2/3 series of engines that might enter production with no Nene competition.

Riain · May 25, 2023

However the lack of the Nene will have a direct impact on the Korean War, as the Nene powered Mig15 was a real shock to the West. Assuming the Soviets get these other jets up and running the Sabre will slaughter them in Korea.

jlckansas · May 25, 2023

You might see the Lavochkin 15 as the fighter for the Red Airforce instead of the Mig 15. It was powered by the Klimov RD 500 developed from the Derwent and was on track to be flying at the same time as the 15 but had some problems with the manufacturing.

Riain · May 25, 2023

jlckansas said:
You might see the Lavochkin 15 as the fighter for the Red Airforce instead of the Mig 15. It was powered by the Klimov RD 500 developed from the Derwent and was on track to be flying at the same time as the 15 but had some problems with the manufacturing.

IIUC the Derwent data etc handed over at the same time as the Nene.

If the Soviets don't get the Nene why would they get the Derwent?

jlckansas · May 25, 2023

They didn't lisence the Derwent and found a way to get copies of the engineering.

Fearless Leader · May 25, 2023

jlckansas said:
They didn't lisence the Derwent and found a way to get copies of the engineering.

It's probably worth noting that the engines, particularly the Derwent, were being used in other countries designs by this point. The Soviets probably could have gotten their hands on them if they couldn't get them from the UK. That being said, reverse engineering would have been more difficult than OTL.

Nell_Lucifer · May 26, 2023

Riain said:
However the lack of the Nene will have a direct impact on the Korean War, as the Nene powered Mig15 was a real shock to the West. Assuming the Soviets get these other jets up and running the Sabre will slaughter them in Korea.

Unlikely for that to be the case. If the Nene is unavailable the Committee will order their new, high speed fighter jet to be designed around either the TR-1A or the Jumo 012B engine, which are in a similar power range as with the Nene.

It is possible that in this timeline the La-15 powered by the RD-20F (BMW 003S derivate) or the La-168 powered by the Jumo 012B/TR-1A will win over the MiG 15 of this TL.

The Wooksta! · May 26, 2023

That La168 looks more like the Ta 183 that supposedly influenced the MiG 15 than the MiG 15.

mack8 · May 26, 2023

Here is a very interesting article which might help clear a lot of the misconceptions around this whole RR-USSR engine saga.

“WHAT FOOLS WOULD SELL US THEIR SECRETS?”

Stalin’s supposed remark about Britain’s decision to provide...

www.key.aero

In my opinion, what could happen is VK-1 might receive the same sort of priority RD-45 and RD-500 received (alongside more focus on Lyulka TR-1 and TR-2 and TR-3 engines, and also Mikulin was working hard on jet engines too for instance see AMTKRD-01 and AMRD-02), and the first flying VK-1 examples might be ready a good few months earlier (OTL late 1948), so the MiG-15 prototype might fly spring/summer 1948. It could be likely the first VK-1 engines might have lower life with just the Tinidur alloy, but i'm sure the soviet engineers will work night and day and will get their Nimonic equivalent asap (would they still visit the factories and manage to palm a Nimonic blade, or shavings on their shoes? that was a hilarious episode btw). Possibly the first VK-1 version might be derated to say 2500kgf, but that is still more than the RD-45, so the MiG-15 might actually have a bit more speed compared to OTL.

And if no RD-500 they may not waste time on that smaller engine and the light fighters designed around it, either focus on Lyulka engined alternatives ( iirc there was a MiG-9 project with the TR-1 or TR-2 as well as Yaks etc) or just focus on the VK-1 powered fighters and bombers, which is a good thing. Personally i still think RD-45 and RD-500 were distractions from soviet indigenous engine development, investing huge efort in copying them instead of workind day and night to perfect VK-1 and other jets, so actually hindering to a degree soviet combat aircraft development of that era.