WI Constantine loses?

[Kerney]

Christianity was already a major religion and was on the up, so I'm inclined to think that sooner or later you'd inevitably get a Christian Emperor, unless the Empire itself falls before this can happen.

But which Christian Emperor?

A different Constantine the great?
Or maybe a Julian who dies after 2 years and the reaction was "well that was..... interesting".A Christian Commodus who leaves the public going "well we're never doing THAT again."

I don't think the Tetrarchs would have abandoned their persecution if they thought that were the case.

The history suggests that they didn't understand what they were up against. Christianity was not something they were used to.

Christianity was expanding. But the victory they got otl was not inevitable.

 

[Moosemac]

I think the biggest change is you wont have all the councils that transform and partially unify Christianity into a state-religion for the Roman Empire. So no pope, no trinity, and no Chalcedonian Christianity. I still see them being a significant force in the Roman empire, perhaps more destabilizing.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

By the Glory of the Unconquerable Sun, Long Live the Empire of the Romans. Something everyone here seems to be leaning away from. Underground repressed cults are not major forces of religion in a nation, they represent the exact opposite, repression can only occur dejure when the majority agrees with the actions against the minority.

 

[Mikestone8]

By the Glory of the Unconquerable Sun, Long Live the Empire of the Romans. Something everyone here seems to be leaning away from. Underground repressed cults are not major forces of religion in a nation, they represent the exact opposite, repression can only occur dejure when the majority agrees with the actions against the minority.

Repression can occur anywhere.

In the long run, probably, it can only be successful where a large majority agrees - which may well be why in this case it was unsuccessful.

 

[Moosemac]

Repression can occur anywhere.

In the long run, probably, it can only be successful where a large majority agrees - which may well be why in this case it was unsuccessful.

It could possibly check the spread of Christianity though.

 

[Mikestone8]

I think the biggest change is you wont have all the councils that transform and partially unify Christianity into a state-religion for the Roman Empire. So no pope, no trinity, and no Chalcedonian Christianity. I still see them being a significant force in the Roman empire, perhaps more destabilizing.

Or just outlive the Empire. It isn't going to last forever.

 

[Moosemac]

Or just outlive the Empire. It isn't going to last forever.

True

 

[Mikestone8]

It could possibly check the spread of Christianity though.

While it lasts. But it only needs one man to change his mind (as Galerius did in 311) to bring the repression to an end. And when that happens it can start expanding again.

 

[Moosemac]

While it lasts. But it only needs one man to change his mind (as Galerius did in 311) to bring the repression to an end. And when that happens it can start expanding again.

Right, but an alternate path for the spread of Christianity with a different sects and different theological councils (if a Emperor ever converts) would certainly lead to some interesting butterflys.

 

[Mikestone8]

Right, but an alternate path for the spread of Christianity with a different sects and different theological councils (if a Emperor ever converts) would certainly lead to some interesting butterflys.

Very much so.

Or it might just stay underground until the Empire fell and then emerge. Today's "Vatican" might be on Iona or somewhere like that.

 

[Moosemac]

Very much so.

Or it might just stay underground until the Empire fell and then emerge. Today's "Vatican" might be on Iona or somewhere like that.

I don't think you would even have a Vatican unless a Roman Emperor converts, instead you'd have multiple patriarchs of different sects.

 

[Bee]

Galerius died very soon after issuing his edict of toleration. Maximinus II, originally an enthusiastic persecutor, was still in power in the East. He followed Galerius's edict but it would have surprised no-one if he had started persecuting again. Meanwhile, Maxentius, now victorious at the Milvian Bridge, was also hostile to Christianity, so it would be natural for the two of them to combine against the more tolerant Licinius. Their pagan religion would be a common ground for their side to rally round.

 

[Indicus]

Christianity was already a major religion and was on the up, so I'm inclined to think that sooner or later you'd inevitably get a Christian Emperor, unless the Empire itself falls before this can happen.

There were, of course, many major Eastern mystery cults that did not convert an emperor. I don't see how Christianity would "inevitably" convert a Roman emperor, when many of its alternatives failed to do so.

 

[Mikestone8]

Maxentius, now victorious at the Milvian Bridge, was also hostile to Christianity.

Is there any particular evidence for this?

After his defeat, of course, Constantinians duly vilified him, but if his Wiki article can be believed, contemporary sources don't mention him as a persecutor.

 

[darthfanta]

If they have the number, Emperor following that religion would appear sooner or later.

If such an emperor is of lesser caliber than Constantine,he's screwed.It cannot be stressed enough that there's a reason why Constantine never became a Christian until the day he died.

 

[water123]

All i see happening is that Christianity will go from one Chalcedonian church to a whole bunch of small Christian churches that splinter out through the world. Actually, this might cause Christianity to spread even more as Christians begin to travel far and wide fleeing from persecution.

 

[PhilippeO]

If such an emperor is of lesser caliber than Constantine,he's screwed.It cannot be stressed enough that there's a reason why Constantine never became a Christian until the day he died.

Why ? Roman had Emperor who follow various cult; Sol Invictus had Elagabalus, etc. The choice for Christianity is not only limited to state religion or destruction by persecution. They could become one of many cult/religion in Roman Empire, together with Judaism, Isis, ELagabalus, Mithra, etc; one Emperor or another would rise who depends on Christians as constituent and make Christianity accepted as traditional in the Roman Empire, look at Buddhism in China, it took them several centuries before become established. Even successful Christian general might give CHristianity position like Hui in CHina, as accepted part of society.

 

[darthfanta]

Why ? Roman had Emperor who follow various cult; Sol Invictus had Elagabalus, etc. The choice for Christianity is not only limited to state religion or destruction by persecution. They could become one of many cult/religion in Roman Empire, together with Judaism, Isis, ELagabalus, Mithra, etc; one Emperor or another would rise who depends on Christians as constituent and make Christianity accepted as traditional in the Roman Empire, look at Buddhism in China, it took them several centuries before become established. Even successful Christian general might give CHristianity position like Hui in CHina, as accepted part of society.

Those religions don't contradict the existing Roman religion.

As long as an emperor isn't Christian,there won't be a Christian general.The Romans viewed the Christians with deep suspicion,the same way the Chinese viewed Manichaenism and the White Lotus cult with suspicion.

 

[PhilippeO]

if 10%-30% of Roman citizens is Christian believer, sooner or later, some philosophy/political language that make Christianity integrated within Roman Empire would appear. Perhaps 'praying for Emperor' justification would satisfy poltical need. As for Olympian pagan religion, most Emperor wouldn't want to have civil war just because some people don't believe in existence of Jupiter, and many other cult not just Christianity do have contradictory view about nature of Gods.

 

[darthfanta]

if 10%-30% of Roman citizens is Christian believer, sooner or later, some philosophy/political language that make Christianity integrated within Roman Empire would appear. Perhaps 'praying for Emperor' justification would satisfy poltical need. As for Olympian pagan religion, most Emperor wouldn't want to have civil war just because some people don't believe in existence of Jupiter, and many other cult not just Christianity do have contradictory view about nature of Gods.

Remember that prior to Constantine,Christianity was viewed as a slave's religion.It's a complete stretch to say that sooner or later a Christian would ascend to the throne.There won't be a civil war if they cracked down on Christianity.A rebellion in the same vein as the Jewish revolts is more likely.