WI Confederacy and Entente win WW1?

The embittered Chester Martin that emerges from the US that is defeated in the Great War might end up being a very different man than the one from the canon storyline though. (Jake Featherston wasn't a monster at the beginning of the story either afterall. It took Featherston's experiences in the war and afterwards to turn him into one.)
Chester Martin being corrupted by War is interesting cases to see in the Aftermath of the Defending US through the 1920s to 1930s.
And IIRC Martin did seriously consider murdering Lavochkin to put an end to his rampages. That shows that even the good version of Martin was still potentially capable of murder when he believed it was necessary for a good cause. That makes it seem plausible to me that a darker version of Martin could reach the point where he would sign off on killings "for the greater good."
I wonder what Martin will target during his Fascist Regime? Definitely will be Mormons Navin Americans and Socialist but what be others of his victims will be next?
Well definitely will be the Jews as they are being blamed for everything wrong on the US during FGW and afterwards.
Freemason are other target for Martin regime as they are mysterious enough to be hated like the Jews and other crap like that.
I don’t know why he will feel about blacks in the US and the Confederacy?
Anybody else, bguy?
That said I still think it is far more likely that a US that loses the First Great War would go the other way and become extremely pacifistic rather than that they would turn into a fascist, revanchist state. I mentioned Martin as a possible US dictator just because I think he is one of the POV characters in the story that could most plausibly become the dictator of a fascist state if the TL-191 US did go down the fascist path not that I think the US becoming fascist after losing the First Great War is actually likely to happen.
There one ideas I come up with that will be good to see you reacted 😃
If Martin become Yankee Hitler then will McSweeney be Yankee Himmler?
Think about it bguy, McSweeney is as crazy as Himmler with his beliefs enough to make it into Reality, will Killed Millions of innocent lived with Extreme Brutality, Nationalist freaks that Love their Country to death 💀 and Loved their Fantasy too much that it tuned into a Death Cult.

McSweeney joining with US Fascist party will also Booth their popularly with the Religious right and National hero who will be loved for fighting against The “Degenerate Polygamist cultists” in Utah Rebellion during the FGW. The US Protestants population will likely be in the favor of Martin fascist party after McSweeney joins in with their Caused and will definitely helped them to win’s in the US Election to come.

Martin might have even give McSweeney his own organization to protect him as President AKA Yankee Hitler give Buff Hardcore Christian Himmler a Death Squad
 
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bguy

Donor
I wonder what Martin will target during his Fascist Regime? Definitely will be Mormons Navin Americans and Socialist but what be others of his victims will be next?
Well definitely will be the Jews as they are being blamed for everything wrong on the US during FGW and afterwards.
Freemason are other target for Martin regime as they are mysterious enough to be hated like the Jews and other crap like that.
I don’t know why he will feel about blacks in the US and the Confederacy?
Anybody else, bguy?

Maybe the big trusts with Martin blaming their greed (in overcharging the government for war material) and inefficiency (in failing to produce enough war material) for US soldiers not having the tools they needed to win the First Great War. Targeting the trusts would also help Martin undercut the Socialists' appeal to the working class as Martin could argue he will fight for the little guy just like the Socialists claim to but without the Socialists' weakness against foreign enemies.

There one ideas I come up with that will be good to see you reacted 😃
If Martin become Yankee Hitler then will McSweeney be Yankee Himmler?
Think about it bguy, McSweeney is as crazy as Himmler with his beliefs enough to make it into Reality, will Killed Millions of innocent lived with Extreme Brutality, Nationalist freaks that Love their Country to death 💀 and Loved their Fantasy too much that it tuned into a Death Cult.

McSweeney certainly has the the extremism and personal weirdness of Himmler. That said I doubt McSweeney has the administrative ability necessary to manage a large secret police organization, and I'm certain McSweeney would prefer a more hands on role. (He didn't even want to be made an officer and would much rather be out in the trenches fighting than sitting in an office somewhere.) Thus I think McSweeney probably fits better as an Otto Skorzany or Sepp Dietrich type figure.

McSweeney joining with US Fascist party will also Booth their popularly with the Religious right and National hero who will be loved for fighting against The “Degenerate Polygamist cultists” in Utah Rebellion during the FGW. The US Protestants population will likely be in the favor of Martin fascist party after McSweeney joins in with their Caused and will definitely helped them to win’s in the US Election to come.

The problem with Martin placing McSweeney in a prominent public position is McSweeney would be extremely alienating to Catholics who are a huge part of the population in several of the really populous northern states.

Martin might have even give McSweeney his own organization to protect him as President AKA Yankee Hitler give Buff Hardcore Christian Himmler a Death Squad

That seems plausible and would also fit with the idea of McSweeney as a potential Sepp Dietrich figure (who IIRC started out as one of Hitler's bodyguards.)
 
Maybe the big trusts with Martin blaming their greed (in overcharging the government for war material) and inefficiency (in failing to produce enough war material) for US soldiers not having the tools they needed to win the First Great War. Targeting the trusts would also help Martin undercut the Socialists' appeal to the working class as Martin could argue he will fight for the little guy just like the Socialists claim to but without the Socialists' weakness against foreign enemies.
President Commander Martin: “Yes I will helped my fellow Americans to deal once and for all, to finally Dismantle and Destroyed the Big Trust leeches that were Plaguing Our beloved City upon a hill for far too long. I will make sure in my hardest hour I will achieve this goal for your livelihoods”

Jews, Mormons, America Indian etc: “Oh thanks for that and thank you for approving our lives and Helping Our Injusti-“

President Commander Martin:”I wasn’t talking to you, Leeches”
McSweeney certainly has the the extremism and personal weirdness of Himmler. That said I doubt McSweeney has the administrative ability necessary to manage a large secret police organization, and I'm certain McSweeney would prefer a more hands on role. (He didn't even want to be made an officer and would much rather be out in the trenches fighting than sitting in an office somewhere.) Thus I think McSweeney probably fits better as an Otto Skorzany or Sepp Dietrich type figure.
We could see McSweeney be more hands-on version of Himmler in which he want his Organization be efficient as possible for “God and America” as well as want to be “Greater Weapons, Better Equipment, More Brutalized Training” and “Greater Methods to dealing with Dissents” on his American SS + Waffen SS.

He want to his Organization into his Image of what America SHOULD look like in the Future of the American New Order as well as being Protected President Martin from “Traitors American”. So he might be Strange mixed between Sepp Dietrich and Himmler in his own Organization of the American SS
The problem with Martin placing McSweeney in a prominent public position is McSweeney would be extremely alienating to Catholics who are a huge part of the population in several of the really populous northern states.
Well I think that will change in SVTL and even the Canon version, bguy. Catholics was really hated before the Civil War viewed as people who only loyalties for the Pope not America that until the Civil War where Anti-Catholic sentiments was reduced because of the Bravery of Catholic during the Civili war that it helped the attitude of Catholicism in the U.S. to come until Today we had over 2 Presidents that were Catholic in OTL.
1663037378257.jpeg
In SV, Contrast of having the US lose the Civil War and then the following war meaning that Catholics will still be viewed as outsiders and even worse get the Blame for Military defeats by US generals especially after FGW where Million dies in the resulted

Yes there were Many Catholic died during the FGW fighting the Rebs and Canuck but the War ended with the U.S losing the THIRD time! I think there’ll be Stab-in-Back myth definitely development in the Post-FGW America with dislike minority groups like Jews, Mormons and Socialist. This could include the Catholics as they still viewed as outsiders to the American Protestant pop. and even the Average Joe with Anti-Catholicism weren’t disproven because American thinks that they will all are Popery who serving the Pope back in Vatican.

Plus even SVTL where U.S win against the CSA for the first time, they stil disliked the Italian & Irish pp who were Catholic even with their Bravery in the Great War from the Interwar period Union.

Now imagine with Union got humiliated for the third time with even more losses than ever predicted that losing Millions of Young Americans die for war, Political Chaos across from the Big Apple to Salt Lake City, Economic collapse that shut down many jobs and business, Finally a Revenge-filled movement that want U.S Fascistic Militarized stated destroyed their Enemies and removes “Un-American ants”.

The Catholic who highly still be alienated by the U.S public will likely don’t care about what the Catholic said about McSweeney being in high power.


TL;DR:”Man fuck them Catholic bro” -Average American Public view on Catholic
That seems plausible and would also fit with the idea of McSweeney as a potential Sepp Dietrich figure (who IIRC started out as one of Hitler's bodyguards.)
I just wonder what American SS under McSweeney will names, look, anthem like? What will Uniform of the American SS who will be the Elites of the U.S Armies and Fanatical beliefs are under Gordon McSweeney command? What will they do in Martin Regime and maybe even secretly spoke about “Final Solution” that threaten America nation?

Maybe kinda like this is the Anthem for American SS with some changes with more Christian theme and Licking the Rebs one final time
 

bguy

Donor
He want to his Organization into his Image of what America SHOULD look like in the Future of the American New Order as well as being Protected President Martin from “Traitors American”. So he might be Strange mixed between Sepp Dietrich and Himmler in his own Organization of the American SS

The interesting question is what happens to Luther Bliss in this timeline. We don't really know what his initial motivations for collaborating with the Americans (was he just an opportunist or did he come from a Kentucky family that was always pro-US), but we know he is very capable at running a secret police organization, so if he still joined up with the US in this alternate version of TL-191 (and if can convince Martin to trust someone born in the CSA) then he could be a very potent asset for the Martin regime. (Perhaps being the Heydrich to McSweeney's Himmler).

Well I think that will change in SVTL and even the Canon version, bguy. Catholics was really hated before the Civil War viewed as people who only loyalties for the Pope not America that until the Civil War where Anti-Catholic sentiments was reduced because of the Bravery of Catholic during the Civili war that it helped the attitude of Catholicism in the U.S. to come until Today we had over 2 Presidents that were Catholic in OTL.

While there was certainly plenty of anti-Catholic bigotry in the US both pre and post Civil War, politicians still appreciated that Catholic votes were necessary to win a national election. (Witness Winfield Scott's rather cringe inducing attempt at pandering to Irish-American voters in 1852 by talking about how much he loved the sound of a "rich Irish brogue." If politicians understood that they needed Irish-American votes to win presidential elections even as early as 1852 then they would certainly understand the need to do so in the 1920s and '30s.


View attachment 773893In SV, Contrast of having the US lose the Civil War and then the following war meaning that Catholics will still be viewed as outsiders and even worse get the Blame for Military defeats by US generals especially after FGW where Million dies in the resulted

Why would Catholics be blamed for the US defeat though? Like you said millions of Catholics loyally served in the US military during the war, and the US was allied to nations that either were Catholic (the Austro-Hungarians) or who had a very large Catholic population themselves (Germany.)

Also Catholics are not some tiny minority that can be easily pushed around and scapegoated. They are a huge percentage of the population of the northern states. Just look at pages 42-45 of this government report about religion in the United States (based on data obtained in the 1920 census)


It shows that Catholics in 1920 were a a majority of church goers in every state in New England and New Jersey, were over 45% of the church goers in New York and Michigan, and were over 40% of the church goers in Pennsylvania, Illinois and Wisconsin.

I can't imagine the demographics would be that much different in TL-191, so Martin trying to scapegoat Catholic Americans would mean him alienating a very large segment of the population in most of the key northern states. It's hard to see how Martin could ever hope to win a national election without New York, Pennsylvania, and Illinois and Martin's thugs would also have a very hard time bullying Catholics in the streets because unlike Jews and Mormons the Catholics have the numbers to be able to effectively fight back.

And it's not like McSweeney's religious views are going to be that popular with mainline Protestants either. Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and Episcopalians would all find McSweeney's religions views just as distasteful as Catholics would. Thus publicizing McSweeney's religious views would mean antagonizing Catholic voters while doing very little to increase Martin's support from Protestant voters.

Yes there were Many Catholic died during the FGW fighting the Rebs and Canuck but the War ended with the U.S losing the THIRD time! I think there’ll be Stab-in-Back myth definitely development in the Post-FGW America with dislike minority groups like Jews, Mormons and Socialist. This could include the Catholics as they still viewed as outsiders to the American Protestant pop. and even the Average Joe with Anti-Catholicism weren’t disproven because American thinks that they will all are Popery who serving the Pope back in Vatican.

Plus even SVTL where U.S win against the CSA for the first time, they stil disliked the Italian & Irish pp who were Catholic even with their Bravery in the Great War from the Interwar period Union.

What makes you think the Irish are disliked in TL-191? The canon Vice President from 1913 to 1921 appears to have been an Irish-American (Walter McKenna is certainly an Irish sounding name), and we see Irish-Americans holding influential positions in both the Democratic Party (Joe Kennedy being a leading political figure in Massachusetts) and the Socialist Party (with Al Smith being elected president in 1936.) If anything Irish-Americans seem to have far more influence and acceptance in TL-191 than they had IOTL.

The situation with Italian-Americans is admittedly a little more complicated. I can't imagine a scenario where the Entente wins the First Great War without Italy allying with the Entente and that probably would create a lot of hostility to Italian-Americans in this alternate TL-191 U.S.. Still, I think that hostility would be specifically anti-Italian (since Italy would be seen as an enemy nation that betrayed the Quadruple Alliance) rather than being anti-Catholic.
 
The interesting question is what happens to Luther Bliss in this timeline. We don't really know what his initial motivations for collaborating with the Americans (was he just an opportunist or did he come from a Kentucky family that was always pro-US), but we know he is very capable at running a secret police organization, so if he still joined up with the US in this alternate version of TL-191 (and if can convince Martin to trust someone born in the CSA) then he could be a very potent asset for the Martin regime. (Perhaps being the Heydrich to McSweeney's Himmler).
Luther Bliss being Yankee Heydrich could be an Neat idea for having him team up and Collaborate with Yankee Fascist Invader. Having Reb “Unionist” turncoat to helping make Sweeney with his "Operations" against the “Degenerate heretics” across the American continent especially in the West U.S. where there be Camps to operate of American holocaust. He might be the even called "Butcher of Frankfort" for his brutality against the Afro-Confederates and Civilian populated under his command.

There also one person that will definitely be a good candidate to be Yankee Goebbels: Charles Lindbergh who will be the Voice for the American Fascist party, plus being respected for his journey of being Airpilot across the Atlantic Ocean will booth the Party. Even in OTL, Lindbergh even gave speeches to even against joining the War against Nazis as well as blaming the British, the Jews, and the Roosevelt Administration to Wanted to joined the WW2.

I think he’s a perfect person to be the Yankee Goebbels for the American fascist party alongside with McSweeney and Luther Bliss.
While there was certainly plenty of anti-Catholic bigotry in the US both pre and post Civil War, politicians still appreciated that Catholic votes were necessary to win a national election. (Witness Winfield Scott's rather cringe inducing attempt at pandering to Irish-American voters in 1852 by talking about how much he loved the sound of a "rich Irish brogue." If politicians understood that they needed Irish-American votes to win presidential elections even as early as 1852 then they would certainly understand the need to do so in the 1920s and '30s.

Why would Catholics be blamed for the US defeat though? Like you said millions of Catholics loyally served in the US military during the war, and the US was allied to nations that either were Catholic (the Austro-Hungarians) or who had a very large Catholic population themselves (Germany.)

Also Catholics are not some tiny minority that can be easily pushed around and scapegoated. They are a huge percentage of the population of the northern states. Just look at pages 42-45 of this government report about religion in the United States (based on data obtained in the 1920 census)


It shows that Catholics in 1920 were a a majority of church goers in every state in New England and New Jersey, were over 45% of the church goers in New York and Michigan, and were over 40% of the church goers in Pennsylvania, Illinois and Wisconsin.

I can't imagine the demographics would be that much different in TL-191, so Martin trying to scapegoat Catholic Americans would mean him alienating a very large segment of the population in most of the key northern states. It's hard to see how Martin could ever hope to win a national election without New York, Pennsylvania, and Illinois and Martin's thugs would also have a very hard time bullying Catholics in the streets because unlike Jews and Mormons the Catholics have the numbers to be able to effectively fight back.
All righty then one talking about the Catholic not being targeted by the Martin regime but I could see the relationship with Martin regime & Catholicism being similar to Nazis Germany case.
They will work with the fascist Yankee regime but still butthead with the Yankee Fascist regime as the Catholic wouldn’t like State sponsored Eugenics/Sterilization-Program that targeted: Disabled & Mentality ill people that will be similar to Nazi Aktion T4

In my opinion I think Martin feel a lot more “Successful” American euthanasia program than even Hitler T4 program back in Nazis Germany. U.S history with Euthanasia is honestly kinda terrifying, let me explain, bguy.

32 states surprisingly the Northern U.S state itself past for sterilization laws in America that was already State laws acquiring Blacks, Native’s American and Hispanic to forcing be Sterilized that costs over 60,000 people mostly minorities were victims throughout the 20th Century
1663284330829.jpeg


American eugenics movement were Populated by many intellectuals groups in the 19th centuries that were actually popularly at the time. Hell 2/3 American supported of Eugenic that were “Mental Defectives” by 1937, There were Best Baby Contest of which baby’s were the “Fits” the Standard of the idea about eugenics and Successful breeds that spread across US and Hell even Hitler think that the United States were the inspiration for his eugenics policy in Mein Kraft and across Germany during his Regime

I honestly think that Martin would just boost the euthanasia program more across to US during his presidency and might even had Hitler and the Nazis Jealous about the American euthanasia program compared to their T4 Program.

At Best I think the US public opposition on American T4 Program will be lesser and At Worst doesn’t have any opposition at all and American public support it
And it's not like McSweeney's religious views are going to be that popular with mainline Protestants either. Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, and Episcopalians would all find McSweeney's religions views just as distasteful as Catholics would. Thus publicizing McSweeney's religious views would mean antagonizing Catholic voters while doing very little to increase Martin's support from Protestant voters.
Regardless the McSweeney religious view, He still National hero who fought against the Mormon Terrorist in the eyes of Many Americans as well as Martin who basically saved the President lives during the CSA artillery attack.
I think that Martin will tell McSweeney to shut up about his feeling with Catholic Kinda like Hitler telling Himmler to not talk about his Pagan beliefs.

Martin will probably want McSweeney to shut up and just be the “Captain American” of the public and only talked about his feelings about the Catholics in privately with him and with Martin only
The situation with Italian-Americans is admittedly a little more complicated. I can't imagine a scenario where the Entente wins the First Great War without Italy allying with the Entente and that probably would create a lot of hostility to Italian-Americans in this alternate TL-191 U.S.. Still, I think that hostility would be specifically anti-Italian (since Italy would be seen as an enemy nation that betrayed the Quadruple Alliance) rather than being anti-Catholic.
Honestly Martin might be targeted the Italian as they associated with a Entente power that fight against USA as well as being proud of their heritage and less into American assimilation. The Italian American will be viewed as “traitorous lazy gangster” either need to be forceful assimilates or need to be “Removed” from American society under Martin Regime.

Poles (and generally all the Slavic) American will be also targeted by Martin America because generally Anti-Eastern European sentiment that was present in U.S in the OTL as they viewed as generally dislike them as “Not Nordic Anglo-Saxon”, even restrictions from Eastern Europe because they’re not fit the American views at the time. Plus likely Allies to Hitler would please Nazis with the persecution of “Untermensch Amerikanish” making even closer to be in the Axis Power.

Jesus Christ now I feel sad the Polish/ Slavic people even more. There already had the Nazis turned their homeland into slaughterhouse, Now their cousins from America will be sent into Concentration Camps in Death Valley to be killed and torture.
 

bguy

Donor
There also one person that will definitely be a good candidate to be Yankee Goebbels: Charles Lindbergh who will be the Voice for the American Fascist party, plus being respected for his journey of being Airpilot across the Atlantic Ocean will booth the Party. Even in OTL, Lindbergh even gave speeches to even against joining the War against Nazis as well as blaming the British, the Jews, and the Roosevelt Administration to Wanted to joined the WW2.

I think he’s a perfect person to be the Yankee Goebbels for the American fascist party alongside with McSweeney and Luther Bliss.

Another possibility could be Robert McCormick. Like Lingbergh he was an America First isolationist and McCormick was also the publisher of a major newspaper (the Chicago Tribune.)

As for a Yankee Goering, that would seem a natural role for Daniel MacArthur.

Regardless the McSweeney religious view, He still National hero who fought against the Mormon Terrorist in the eyes of Many Americans as well as Martin who basically saved the President lives during the CSA artillery attack.

The incident of Martin saving TR's life would likely be butterflied if we assume a POD in 1914 (which I think is necessary for an Entente victory.)

I think that Martin will tell McSweeney to shut up about his feeling with Catholic Kinda like Hitler telling Himmler to not talk about his Pagan beliefs.

Agreed. And McSweeney did show a willingness to serve alongside "Catholic" soldiers (even if Mantarkis was actually Greek Orthodox), and even in his own way regret their passing (he was saddened by Mantarkis's death), so it's not like he can't work with Catholics when he thinks it's needed for a greater cause.

Honestly Martin might be targeted the Italian as they associated with a Entente power that fight against USA as well as being proud of their heritage and less into American assimilation. The Italian American will be viewed as “traitorous lazy gangster” either need to be forceful assimilates or need to be “Removed” from American society under Martin Regime.

I wonder if the gangster stereotype would exist for Italian-Americans in TL-191? Absent Prohibition, organized crime won't loom nearly as large in the public consciousness.

Poles (and generally all the Slavic) American will be also targeted by Martin America because generally Anti-Eastern European sentiment that was present in U.S in the OTL as they viewed as generally dislike them as “Not Nordic Anglo-Saxon”, even restrictions from Eastern Europe because they’re not fit the American views at the time.

Oddly enough the Polish-Americans might not be that persecuted by Martin's regime. With the Entente victorious in Europe, the Russian Empire has probably absorbed all of Poland. Thus an Actionist US might actually see the Poles as innocent victims of Entente oppression. It doesn't mean Martin's regime would be welcoming to Polish immigrants (it's still a fascist regime after all), but the Poles will probably be much less hated than Italian, Serbian, Russian or Mexican immigrants (those all being Entente countries.)

Plus likely Allies to Hitler would please Nazis with the persecution of “Untermensch Amerikanish” making even closer to be in the Axis Power.

I doubt Hitler will be able to come to power in this timeline. For one thing with the Russian Empire having triumphed in the First Great War (the Entente pretty much has to win before Russia collapses to have any chance of winning the war ITTL) there presumably won't be a communist revolution in Russia and thus Hitler won't have the communist boogeyman to scare people into supporting him like he had IOTL. Also, with a surviving Tsarist Russia, France now has a powerful willing partner that will help them keep Germany contained, so even if Hitler does come to power as soon as he starts to rearm he will likely get stomped on hard by the French and Russians.

(Which is not to say that things will be at all pleasant for the Poles under Tsarist Russia.)
 

Would if there be American version of the Friekorps in Post-WW1 USA?

There were Rightwing paramilitary who absolutely despise the Treaty of Versailles, Communist and Heavily Nationalist who weridy defend the Republic that replaced the Kaiser Monarchy. They earned a reputation for Bravery, Militaristic Force and for instance brutality for the Communist during the September / German revolution.

They were still embittered soldiers who want to to pay back against the Communist for the insurrection, so they're going around killing unarmed socialist and also kill innocent people as well during their operation in the Weimar Republic.
Will their be Equivalent of Friekorps in Interwar years in USA immediately after the Great war with defeated by the Entente power?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freikorps

In Utah however will be far more different than Most of Cites from Midwest and Mid-Atlantic. The American
Friekorps will highly be similar to the Baltic Friekorps who murdered over 3,000 people in Riga alone and another 500 Lativan in the Baltic Wars back in the 1920s.
I think also inspiration for the American Friekorps in Utah is the Black and Tans in Ireland, who were known for their brutality against the populace of Ireland during the War of Independent as well as targeted get into the people for Summary Attack appraisal for the IRA action.

Will that happened the same too in Utah with the Mormons? Especially with the Deep Nationalism & Humilation from American veterans in the War.

 
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One thing that happened in the Presbyterian Butcher is that the rising in Ireland was pre-empted. So maybe Irish Americans will be seen as turncoats as well.

He might be the even called "Butcher of Frankfort" for his brutality against the Afro-Confederates and Civilian populated under his command.

Interesting. I imagined Boris Lavochkin being a "Butcher of Memphis/Nashville".
 
Berlin-Washington-Rome-Tokyo Axis, probably
I don't think the American fashion wouldn't join the Japanese into the alliance.

They already fought the Japanese in the Great War, they were many anti-japanese sentiment at a time and it will only increase when Philadelphia by the American fascist.

Why would the American fasicist party have alliance with the people that they consider inferior to them?

Japanese who are Ultranationalist as fuck wouldn't talk to the American fascist who treat their people in America like shit.

Same with Italy but a lesser extent because Italy fought against America when the Ally to the Entente and betrayed the alliances with America and Germany. They won't that forgot about it they will hate Italy for that and for extend the Italian immigrant as well are they still use them as "gangsters lazy thugs"

The Only alliance that I think the American fasicist well honestly be happy about is the Nazis because the Same struggle with defeated Nation and had the Same blood with many Americans actually descended from German immigrants. So I can see many cousins and family members from the Nazis will help them into this Alliance even more in the Axis power
Interesting. I imagined Boris Lavochkin being a "Butcher of Memphis/Nashville".
The problem is that Boris highly is a Slavic American or descendant of them and that a Big no no to American fascist state that will be alliance with Germany. Nationalist nation that is very very anti-slavic and consider them "sub-human" to be exterminated.
U.S won't be as friendly to the slavs either as they're not fit to the "Nordic Anglo-Saxon European" that they like in OTL
 

bguy

Donor
Would if there be American version of the Friekorps in Post-WW1 USA?

There were Rightwing paramilitary who absolutely despise the Treaty of Versailles, Communist and Heavily Nationalist who weridy defend the Republic that replaced the Kaiser Monarchy. They earned a reputation for Bravery, Militaristic Force and for instance brutality for the Communist during the September / German revolution.

They were still embittered soldiers who want to to pay back against the Communist for the insurrection, so they're going around killing unarmed socialist and also kill innocent people as well during their operation in the Weimar Republic.
Will their be Equivalent of Friekorps in Interwar years in USA immediately after the Great war with defeated by the Entente power?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freikorps

I think Freikorps would be unlikely because the US defeat in this scenario is much less comprehensive than what happened to Germany IOTL. The US in this scenario didn't suffer a massive military defeat on the battlefield, it's population isn't starving, it hasn't had its existing government collapse in revolution, and it's not likely to be under any military restrictions. It just had a democratic election and the party that won the election decided the war wasn't worth continuing. Having won a fair and free election the Socialists under President Debs will have much more popular legitimacy than the early Weimar government did, and the Debs Administration will likewise be taking control of an intact government (with corresponding control of formidable police and military power). Having both popular legitimacy and an intact military, the Socialists under President Debs are in a much stronger position to suppress rightwing paramilitary organizations than the early Weimar government ever was and as such I suspect that any Freikorp organization that appears will get taken down hard.
 
The US in this scenario didn't suffer a massive military defeat on the battlefield, it's population isn't starving, it hasn't had its existing government collapse in revolution, and it's not likely to be under any military restrictions.
Millions of Young American men and boys died and wounded in the trenches, no man land and Desert wasteland had just died. The Economy of the US is now Tanking after the war, British navy block off exports food to US Ports and likely there Spanish flu Way earlier affected the Post-WW1 America because of the Great mobilization in FGW.

Military will had no restrictions yes I agreed, but there be Popular belief that they will win the War. Military is not experienced Massive defeat like in Germany. They were beaten back and exhausted by the Entente power, which will basically embarrassed US for third time in 50 Years.

It wouldn't be as extreme like Wemeir but will be damned very close to it.
It just had a democratic election and the party that won the election decided the war wasn't worth continuing.
This is not even talking about the decades and decades of preparedness for the US military to conquer the South and they still lost. Remember how Germany have a whole stab-in-the-back myth "We could have won the war Until those Socialist shill and Jewish lobbies sold us out against Our Victory"

Now imagine that Myth but Steroids with Rememberacist sentiment stronger than ever across the United States especially with Socialist president being empowered will be in the Blamed.

Socialists will be even more to blamed than Germany especially in the Midwest State will support Martin party.
Having won a fair and free election the Socialists under President Debs will have much more popular legitimacy than the early Weimar government did, and the Debs Administration will likewise be taking control of an intact government (with corresponding control of formidable police and military power).
While I agree that President Debs have more legitimacy than Weimar After WW1, I don't think he will be as popular as you thought, Debs did pull out the War that seemed unwinnable but have to deal with political societal and now Pandemic chaos in 1917.

Post-WW1 US in the Year of 1917 will even make 1968 & 2020 US Chaos child play in Comparison and Debs will be the one who got the Blamed for it.

People will call him "Socialist pansy" for stopping them winning the War which will given rise to Nationalistic sentiment in a post war America
Having both popular legitimacy and an intact military, the Socialists under President Debs are in a much stronger position to suppress rightwing paramilitary organizations than the early Weimar government ever was and as such I suspect that any Freikorp organization that appears will get taken down hard.
Even if it's legitimate I don't see President Deb will be popular or support enough to US Military when they will think U S could have won the WW1 as well as dealing with social unrest.

Good portion military wouldn't like a Socialist president who ended WW1 with defeated, likely they're still going to be Rightwing paramilitary groups spot after the war to beat off Unrest.

And no matter how much Debs will convince them that it's not defeated, War Is just not worth it.
People will still blame him for losing the war and the chaos of 1917 which they convince it the "Socialist rat fault" especially Rememberacist
 

bguy

Donor
Now imagine that Myth but Steroids with Rememberacist sentiment stronger than ever across the United States especially with Socialist president being empowered will be in the Blamed.

Socialists will be even more to blamed than Germany especially in the Midwest State will support Martin party.
I think there are two big differences in this scenario though.

First, Debs didn't come to power through some backroom political maneuvering like the Weimar government did. He won a free and fair democratic election where he had openly campaigned on a status quo ante bellum peace. Debs is giving the American people what he campaigned on, so it will be a lot harder for the American public to believe they were stabbed in the back when Debs is doing exactly what a majority of the voters (i.e. tens of millions of people) voted for.

Second, the US economy will be in much stronger shape than Germany was post-World War 1 since the US isn't starving (it is food sufficient and the Entente has no ability to reach the American heartland), and the Entente has no ability to force it to surrender territory or pay war reparations. With a much stronger economy Debs has much greater ability to fund social programs than Weimar Germany had which will give him the ability to win popular support.

While I agree that President Debs have more legitimacy than Weimar After WW1, I don't think he will be as popular as you thought, Debs did pull out the War that seemed unwinnable but have to deal with political societal and now Pandemic chaos in 1917.

Post-WW1 US in the Year of 1917 will even make 1968 & 2020 US Chaos child play in Comparison and Debs will be the one who got the Blamed for it.

People will call him "Socialist pansy" for stopping them winning the War which will given rise to Nationalistic sentiment in a post war America

There will definitely be some people saying that but for millions of people Debs' message that the US should spend its wealth improving the lives of its citizens rather than gearing up for yet another war will be a very attractive message. And of course the Socialists can also counter with their own demagogic appeal that the Great War only happened to make fat cat industrialists and bankers even richer.

Even if it's legitimate I don't see President Deb will be popular or support enough to US Military when they will think U S could have won the WW1 as well as dealing with social unrest.

Good portion military wouldn't like a Socialist president who ended WW1 with defeated, likely they're still going to be Rightwing paramilitary groups spot after the war to beat off Unrest.

The mini-timeline I did for an Entente victory actually assumed that General Leonard Wood would seriously consider launching a military coup to prevent Debs from taking office and that Wood would be talked down by Theodore Roosevelt in his last great service to the American Republic (with Roosevelt basically warning Wood that if he launched his coup, TR would be the first man on the barricades to oppose him.)
 
Would be Chester Martin mistress/ lover in this TL guys? I think good candidate for being Yankee Eva Braun is Surprisely Sylvia Enos because she literally travel to the CSA to kill her husband killer.

I think Sylvia Enos will Definitely will support the US Fascist and Martin will have someone that show he pain for his country be defeated in the FGW.

Plus I like the idea of Martin and Sylvia being so depressed after FGW that they started to become Lover so they not alone anymore.
 
First, Debs didn't come to power through some backroom political maneuvering like the Weimar government did. He won a free and fair democratic election where he had openly campaigned on a status quo ante bellum peace. Debs is giving the American people what he campaigned on, so it will be a lot harder for the American public to believe they were stabbed in the back when Debs is doing exactly what a majority of the voters (i.e. tens of millions of people) voted for.
People literally think U.S Election is rigged and stolen by the Party they disagree with. It's not hard to believe that Rightwing people will say 1917 Election is stolen and rigged by "Jewish Socialists Leech"

Plus I said U.S Myth has supported because the Military was pretty much call off to defeating the CSA once and for all by the Socialist.
That alone would make it more believable to people to think that they will stop in the back than in Germany as well as Military isn't Defeated by Rebs enough to make the Myth more believable.
Second, the US economy will be in much stronger shape than Germany was post-World War 1 since the US isn't starving (it is food sufficient and the Entente has no ability to reach the American heartland), and the Entente has no ability to force it to surrender territory or pay war reparations. With a much stronger economy Debs has much greater ability to fund social programs than Weimar Germany had which will give him the ability to win popular support.
Entente has the Royal Navy who after they defeated German navy, would destroyed any American ship to Oblivion in the Atlantic ocean.
This is not even mentioned that Mexico and other Hispanic countries will likely have sanctions and not importing food to the Americans cause of the Royal Navy.
Asia allies would also joined the Entente sanctioned to America in the Pacific front as well to affect the food supply of US.

Which will make U.S has Food shortage during the FGW (Tho not as Extreme like in Germany in WW1)

Royal Navy battling to U.S Navy 1916 ca
There will definitely be some people saying that but for millions of people Debs' message that the US should spend its wealth improving the lives of its citizens rather than gearing up for yet another war will be a very attractive message. And of course the Socialists can also counter with their own demagogic appeal that the Great War only happened to make fat cat industrialists and bankers even richer.
There will probably be Socialist message for the War but they will also have to compete with Rememberacist views on that Conflict as well.

You even suggested that Martin will targeted the Big Trusts ( Which will probably everyone will hate regardless of Politics ) and easily be blamed by the Jews "traitors" by Right-winger.

So you have two versions of the War controlled by the Socialists and the Right wingers who will battle to control US politics. These two views on the Great war will be attractive to both the US public not as a one-sided thing like you portray
The mini-timeline I did for an Entente victory actually assumed that General Leonard Wood would seriously consider launching a military coup to prevent Debs from taking office and that Wood would be talked down by Theodore Roosevelt in his last great service to the American Republic (with Roosevelt basically warning Wood that if he launched his coup, TR would be the first man on the barricades to oppose him.)
Wouldn't Theodore got assassinated by either Entente or Dissent to add the Chaos of Postwar 1917?
With all due respect Mr bguy, Even Roosevelt didn't follow the US Constitution when he literally trying to have a third term term and alright with Military rule in Utah and Canada along it "keeping the peace"
 

bguy

Donor
People literally think U.S Election is rigged and stolen by the Party they disagree with. It's not hard to believe that Rightwing people will say 1917 Election is stolen and rigged by "Jewish Socialists Leech"

TR isn't Donald Trump. Belief in honest competition was one of the core elements of TR's whole being. He would never claim he was cheated in a competition he lost fair and square. It's going to be hard for right wing populists to get any traction for the idea that the election was stolen if even their candidate is insisting it was a fair election and they need to grow up.

Plus I said U.S Myth has supported because the Military was pretty much call off to defeating the CSA once and for all by the Socialist.
That alone would make it more believable to people to think that they will stop in the back than in Germany as well as Military isn't Defeated by Rebs enough to make the Myth more believable.

Again though how is it a stab in the back when it's a democratically elected president doing exactly what he promised to do in his election campaign.

Entente has the Royal Navy who after they defeated German navy, would destroyed any American ship to Oblivion in the Atlantic ocean.

That's extremely unlikely.

Even if we assume the Royal Navy is substantially larger than the US Atlantic Fleet (which is a reasonable assumption), it is going to be very difficult for the Royal Navy to bring the Atlantic Fleet to battle. It can shelter in its naval bases which the Royal Navy doesn't dare attack directly. (There's a reason the Royal Navy never tried to attack the main German fleet bases directly during World War 1 IOTL despite the Grand Navy being much larger than the High Seas Fleet and that's because taking your dreadnoughts close to the enemy shoreline where they are vulnerable to mines, submarines, and torpedo boats is an extremely bad idea. The US fleet bases in TL-191 will certainly be at least as well protected as the German Navy's bases were in OTL WW1, so the British will have no ability to realistically attack the US fleet in its own bases.)

And since the US Navy has the shelter of its own bases, it becomes all but impossible for the Royal Navy to destroy the Atlantic Fleet. It can't just linger off the US coast indefinitely. This isn't the 17th century. Dreadnoughts can't get by on wind power. They require oil or coal. And since underway replenishment was in its infancy at the time of World War 1, that means the British are going to need access to a massive fleet base in North American waters if they want to maintain the Grand Fleet off the US coast for any length of time.

It is doubtful such a base exist. Even if we assume the British built a base in Halifax big enough to hold the entire Grand Fleet, Halifax has almost certainly been overrun by US forces by 1916 and thus that base is not available to the British. And where else would the British be able to hold such a massive fleet. It is doubtful the Confederates have a naval base anywhere near that big. Norfolk is capable of being an enormous fleet base, but it is not believable that the Confederates would spend the money necessary to build an enormous fleet base at Norfolk when they don't have an enormous fleet and do have so many other pressing needs for their defense budget.

And of course even if we do just magic in a fleet base capable of supporting the entire Grand Fleet, that still leaves the Royal Navy pretty much at square one. They can't effectively blockade the US coast because they can't risk dispersing their fleet (which would enable the Americans to defeat it in detail), and they can't attack the American fleet because it will just stay in its protected bases. All the Royal Navy can really do in this situation is keep the US Navy from interfering with the Anglo-Confederate trade. That's certainly not nothing but it's not exactly sweeping US ships from the Atlantic.

This is not even mentioned that Mexico and other Hispanic countries will likely have sanctions and not importing food to the Americans cause of the Royal Navy.
Asia allies would also joined the Entente sanctioned to America in the Pacific front as well to affect the food supply of US.

Which will make U.S has Food shortage during the FGW (Tho not as Extreme like in Germany in WW1)
Whatca talking about Willis? The US at this time is a MASSIVE food producer. It was not dependent on any foreign source for its food supplies. Quite the contrary in fact. as It was a major food exporter at that time.

Look at page 18, in this book "The International Grain Trade" for some insight on just how much surplus food the US was capable of producing in the early 20th century. The chart on that page only relates to the amount of British grain imports by country, but it shows that the United States was the largest single source of grain imports to Britain in the 1910-1914 time period with it exporting an average of over a million tons of grain to Britain per year in that time period.


And of course Britain was not the only country, the US exported food supplies to. (Nor was grain the only food item the US exported.)

Thus even if we assume that the Entente can somehow convince the rest of the world to stop trading with the US (which in itself is unlikely), that is not going to put the US under any food pressure at all. At its absolute worst the US would lose access to some luxury food items like coffee and tropical fruits that can't physically be grown in the United States, but while people might be grouchy about not getting their morning coffee, no one in the US is going to be starving or even hungry.

Wouldn't Theodore got assassinated by either Entente or Dissent to add the Chaos of Postwar 1917?

The Entente would never try to assassinate TR. Doing so would be unthinkable under the diplomatic rules of the early 20th century. Assassinating heads of state (or even former heads of state) was viewed as something that anarchists and terrorists did not great powers.

TR getting assassinated by a disgruntled veteran is possible, but I fail to see how that would destabilize the US. If anything such an act would discredit the far right movement and make it easier for President Debs to crack down on any extremist groups.

With all due respect Mr bguy, Even Roosevelt didn't follow the US Constitution when he literally trying to have a third term term and alright with Military rule in Utah and Canada along it "keeping the peace"

Trying to have a third term isn't a violation of the Constitution. Even IOTL the 22nd Amendment (which limits presidents to 2 terms) wasn't ratified until 1951 (i.e. long after the time period we are talking about), and there is no indication in the novels that such an amendment had ever been enacted in the TL-191 US. TR might have been going against an established custom by seeking a third term, but it was entirely legal for him to do so.

Likewise as to martial law, that is also provided for in the Constitution (which allows for the writ of habeas corpus to be suspended in case of invasion or rebellion.) Thus there would be nothing illegal about TR imposing martial law in Utah (which certainly went into rebellion during the FGW.)

As for Canada, it was an occupied enemy country. That TR might impose harsh measures in occupying a foreign enemy does not mean he would be ok with subverting democracy in the United States itself.
 

octoberman

Banned
Millions of Young American men and boys died and wounded in the trenches, no man land and Desert wasteland had just died. The Economy of the US is now Tanking after the war, British navy block off exports food to US Ports and likely there Spanish flu Way earlier affected the Post-WW1 America because of the Great mobilization in FGW.

Military will had no restrictions yes I agreed, but there be Popular belief that they will win the War. Military is not experienced Massive defeat like in Germany. They were beaten back and exhausted by the Entente power, which will basically embarrassed US for third time in 50 Years.

It wouldn't be as extreme like Wemeir but will be damned very close to it.

This is not even talking about the decades and decades of preparedness for the US military to conquer the South and they still lost. Remember how Germany have a whole stab-in-the-back myth "We could have won the war Until those Socialist shill and Jewish lobbies sold us out against Our Victory"

Now imagine that Myth but Steroids with Rememberacist sentiment stronger than ever across the United States especially with Socialist president being empowered will be in the Blamed.

Socialists will be even more to blamed than Germany especially in the Midwest State will support Martin party.

While I agree that President Debs have more legitimacy than Weimar After WW1, I don't think he will be as popular as you thought, Debs did pull out the War that seemed unwinnable but have to deal with political societal and now Pandemic chaos in 1917.

Post-WW1 US in the Year of 1917 will even make 1968 & 2020 US Chaos child play in Comparison and Debs will be the one who got the Blamed for it.

People will call him "Socialist pansy" for stopping them winning the War which will given rise to Nationalistic sentiment in a post war America

Even if it's legitimate I don't see President Deb will be popular or support enough to US Military when they will think U S could have won the WW1 as well as dealing with social unrest.

Good portion military wouldn't like a Socialist president who ended WW1 with defeated, likely they're still going to be Rightwing paramilitary groups spot after the war to beat off Unrest.

And no matter how much Debs will convince them that it's not defeated, War Is just not worth it.
People will still blame him for losing the war and the chaos of 1917 which they convince it the "Socialist rat fault" especially Rememberacist

People literally think U.S Election is rigged and stolen by the Party they disagree with. It's not hard to believe that Rightwing people will say 1917 Election is stolen and rigged by "Jewish Socialists Leech"

Plus I said U.S Myth has supported because the Military was pretty much call off to defeating the CSA once and for all by the Socialist.
That alone would make it more believable to people to think that they will stop in the back than in Germany as well as Military isn't Defeated by Rebs enough to make the Myth more believable.

Entente has the Royal Navy who after they defeated German navy, would destroyed any American ship to Oblivion in the Atlantic ocean.
This is not even mentioned that Mexico and other Hispanic countries will likely have sanctions and not importing food to the Americans cause of the Royal Navy.
Asia allies would also joined the Entente sanctioned to America in the Pacific front as well to affect the food supply of US.

Which will make U.S has Food shortage during the FGW (Tho not as Extreme like in Germany in WW1)

Royal Navy battling to U.S Navy 1916 ca

There will probably be Socialist message for the War but they will also have to compete with Rememberacist views on that Conflict as well.

You even suggested that Martin will targeted the Big Trusts ( Which will probably everyone will hate regardless of Politics ) and easily be blamed by the Jews "traitors" by Right-winger.

So you have two versions of the War controlled by the Socialists and the Right wingers who will battle to control US politics. These two views on the Great war will be attractive to both the US public not as a one-sided thing like you portray

Wouldn't Theodore got assassinated by either Entente or Dissent to add the Chaos of Postwar 1917?
With all due respect Mr bguy, Even Roosevelt didn't follow the US Constitution when he literally trying to have a third term term and alright with Military rule in Utah and Canada along it "keeping the peace"
There is no way CSA and Canada can Survive 1914 fighting USA which had 35% of world manufacturing more than UK and Germany combined with 15% each. Most of USA's manufacturing was concentrated in the north until cold war. But CSA had 39% of population under plantation slavey would have only minuscule industry compared to USA or Entante or central powers so it could not have mobilized only a smaller portion than USA. America can build a navy on par the combined entante navies with it's industry outnumber it with German navy. To survive the entante has to defeat germany by christmas 1914. It won't be possible because ITL Germany would use a defensive strategy to wait for AEF. CSA and Entante don't havea Chance to survive the war let alone win it
 
There is no way CSA and Canada can Survive 1914 fighting USA which had 35% of world manufacturing more than UK and Germany combined with 15% each. Most of USA's manufacturing was concentrated in the north until cold war. But CSA had 39% of population under plantation slavey would have only minuscule industry compared to USA or Entante or central powers so it could not have mobilized only a smaller portion than USA. America can build a navy on par the combined entante navies with it's industry outnumber it with German navy. To survive the entante has to defeat germany by christmas 1914. It won't be possible because ITL Germany would use a defensive strategy to wait for AEF. CSA and Entante don't havea Chance to survive the war let alone win it
We talking about scenario that somehow someway Entente win against the Central Power.
This is straight up ASB or at least hard scenario to fight by the Entente winning, Octoberman, it's audience disbelief and figure out what the replication of that is and how it affect America
 

octoberman

Banned
We talking about scenario that somehow someway Entente win against the Central Power.
This is straight up ASB or at least hard scenario to fight by the Entente winning, Octoberman, it's audience disbelief and figure out what the replication of that is and how it affect America
Royal Navy battling to U.S Navy 1916 ca
but you did claim USN has no chance against RN. While the opposite would happen
 
but you did claim USN has no chance against RN. While the opposite would happen
RN were consider the Largest and more Powerful Navy in the World until WWII and USN is challenge to the British Navy yeah but it wouldn't be as stomp.

Remember the British fought KM in OTL who will highly be similar to the USN and still beat the Huns Navy (It was tough battle between them in the Sea) so likely after the British done with the German, they will deal with the USN afterward.

I think RN would won against the USN but it will definitely had Very bruised noise and black eye in the Atlantic front even then US could definitely had many navy to throw at the British Navy. I say it will be Extreme tough fight between these two Powerful Navy
TR isn't Donald Trump. Belief in honest competition was one of the core elements of TR's whole being. He would never claim he was cheated in a competition he lost fair and square. It's going to be hard for right wing populists to get any traction for the idea that the election was stolen if even their candidate is insisting it was a fair election and they need to grow up.
I wasn't accused TR to act like Trump or his administration acting like the 45th president did. All I said is the Rightwing and Rememberacist views the 1916 Election was rigged and stolen by the Socialist, that it bguy.

All right let us in the discussion right here cuz I don't want to moderate to call this stuff for this so let's just say we agree to disagree
 
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