WI Confederacy and Entente win WW1?

bguy

Donor
I don't see Chester Martin as a fascist. After all he was a union organiser so more like to be a Trotsyite or Maoist. In fact I cannot see any of them mutable into a fascist. Whether Turtledove intended Featherston to be fascism I guess only he knows. However, he could have used Kimball, the submersible commander and war criminal insteadm as the facist leader.

Martin was initially at least somewhat politically conservative. (He voted for Roosevelt in 1916 after all.) It was his experiences in the strikes after the FGW that led to him becoming a labor organizer and a Socialist. And even as a Socialist he still always favored a strong military and a hard line foreign policy. (To the point that he even voted for Taft in 1940 because he thought that Smith was too soft on the CSA.) Thus in a timeline where the US loses the First Great War due to Debs being elected and coming to terms with the Entente, it would be easy to imagine Martin becoming embittered against the Socialists and going hard right.
 
Obviously in Harry Turtledove's TL-191 or Southern Victory Series the US allied with the Central Powers is able to defeat the Entente and Confederacy in the First World War (referred to as the First Great War in universe). However what if it was the other way round. What if the Confederacy allied with Britain, France and Russia had emerged victorious from the Conflict. What would the peace treaties look like?
Hard to imagine the Entente winning the war if the Union is supporting the CP. First off, the USA would not object to Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. That means USW will be in effect from early 1915 on. Canada will hold back most of its army for home defense. The USA is weaker financially, but they will not be advancing major loans to the UK or sell supplies, ships, or arms on credit. The RN will have to send a large battle group to Halifax, and other forces to defend the West Indies, weakening the Grand Fleet in the North Sea.

The CSA has more oil, but the USA would pressure Mexico, and Venezuela to not sell oil to the Allies. In this TL the USA is probably the main customer for their oil, and they wouldn't want to risk that market. Once the USA & CSA start fighting the CSA will be blockaded, reducing the supply of oil, and cotton going to the Allies. The Allies will have no arms or supplies to spare to help the CSA. Without U.S. support Russia might have collapsed a few months earlier.

The shift in the weights in the scale would defiantly make the Entente the underdogs. The CSA cannot make up that difference. Supporting the CSA in the ACW and making a permanent enemy of the USA would be something the UK would deeply regret in 1915.
 

bguy

Donor
Hard to imagine the Entente winning the war if the Union is supporting the CP.

I gave one possible scenario for an Entente victory in this thread. It's difficult to achieve, but I think it is possible. It does require the Entente to achieve a major success in 1914 though. (One big enough to convince the Ottomans to stay out of the war and the Italians to join in on the Entente's side.)


First off, the USA would not object to Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. That means USW will be in effect from early 1915 on. Canada will hold back most of its army for home defense. The USA is weaker financially, but they will not be advancing major loans to the UK or sell supplies, ships, or arms on credit. The RN will have to send a large battle group to Halifax, and other forces to defend the West Indies, weakening the Grand Fleet in the North Sea.

I can't see the Royal Navy sending ships to Halifax for that very reason. There's no way for them to send enough ships to Halifax to be able to hold off the U.S. Atlantic Fleet without losing control of the North Sea, and the British admiralty will never risk that. Canada is on its own.

The CSA has more oil, but the USA would pressure Mexico, and Venezuela to not sell oil to the Allies. In this TL the USA is probably the main customer for their oil, and they wouldn't want to risk that market.

Mexico is allied with the CSA in TL-191 and at war with the US. Furthermore, even if it was neutral how would Mexico ever be able to ship any oil to the US? I believe most of Mexican oil production at that time was in eastern Mexico, so it would be shipped out through the Gulf of Mexico which is a Confederate lake.

Once the USA & CSA start fighting the CSA will be blockaded, reducing the supply of oil, and cotton going to the Allies.

How would the US blockade the CSA? Mines, torpedo boats, and submarines make close blockade of Confederate ports suicidal, and there aren't any geographic chokepoints that make the Confederate coast vulnerable to distant blockade. I think the US would have to rely on commerce raiding rather than blockade against the CSA.

The Allies will have no arms or supplies to spare to help the CSA. Without U.S. support Russia might have collapsed a few months earlier.

Agreed. That is why the Entente has to win the war fast. If they haven't defeated Germany by 1916 they are in big trouble.
 
I gave one possible scenario for an Entente victory in this thread. It's difficult to achieve, but I think it is possible. It does require the Entente to achieve a major success in 1914 though. (One big enough to convince the Ottomans to stay out of the war and the Italians to join in on the Entente's side.)




I can't see the Royal Navy sending ships to Halifax for that very reason. There's no way for them to send enough ships to Halifax to be able to hold off the U.S. Atlantic Fleet without losing control of the North Sea, and the British admiralty will never risk that. Canada is on its own.



Mexico is allied with the CSA in TL-191 and at war with the US. Furthermore, even if it was neutral how would Mexico ever be able to ship any oil to the US? I believe most of Mexican oil production at that time was in eastern Mexico, so it would be shipped out through the Gulf of Mexico which is a Confederate lake.



How would the US blockade the CSA? Mines, torpedo boats, and submarines make close blockade of Confederate ports suicidal, and there aren't any geographic chokepoints that make the Confederate coast vulnerable to distant blockade. I think the US would have to rely on commerce raiding rather than blockade against the CSA.



Agreed. That is why the Entente has to win the war fast. If they haven't defeated Germany by 1916 they are in big trouble.
Maybe have a bigger victory at the Marne?
 
Hard to imagine the Entente winning the war if the Union is supporting the CP. First off, the USA would not object to Unrestricted Submarine Warfare. That means USW will be in effect from early 1915 on. Canada will hold back most of its army for home defense. The USA is weaker financially, but they will not be advancing major loans to the UK or sell supplies, ships, or arms on credit. The RN will have to send a large battle group to Halifax, and other forces to defend the West Indies, weakening the Grand Fleet in the North Sea.

The CSA has more oil, but the USA would pressure Mexico, and Venezuela to not sell oil to the Allies. In this TL the USA is probably the main customer for their oil, and they wouldn't want to risk that market. Once the USA & CSA start fighting the CSA will be blockaded, reducing the supply of oil, and cotton going to the Allies. The Allies will have no arms or supplies to spare to help the CSA. Without U.S. support Russia might have collapsed a few months earlier.

The shift in the weights in the scale would defiantly make the Entente the underdogs. The CSA cannot make up that difference. Supporting the CSA in the ACW and making a permanent enemy of the USA would be something the UK would deeply regret in 1915.
Supporting the CSA in the ACW and it become an independent state would have obviously resulted in a smaller USA. At the time the USA was a competitor not an ally to Great Britain and thus would have made sense. Also, Prussia had not morphed into Germany so no threat there.

Countries don't try to predict whom they need as allies in 50 years time. They look at the present state of affairs.
 
I don't see Chester Martin as a fascist. After all he was a union organiser so more like to be a Trotsyite or Maoist. In fact I cannot see any of them mutable into a fascist. Whether Turtledove intended Featherston to be fascism I guess only he knows. However, he could have used Kimball, the submersible commander and war criminal insteadm as the facist leader.
As with bguy mention, Chester was a bit of Conservatives viewpoint before the FGW started and he was sent it into the Roanoke MealGrinder. His view later changed of his politic to made it more left wing because the War and the failure of the Democrats to lead the FGW.

If it was the President Socialist lead the end of the FGW or worse a Leftwing Rebellion against the U.S. government that wasted their time and money during the FGW like In PB ( Presbyterian Butcher ) or OTL Germany, Can easy to make him Anti-Communist and Remembrancist soon to be Fascist’s .

Also Martin has more experience of Leadership than McSweeney ever be because in OSV (Original Southern Victory) Chester was the leader of Labour Union and soon be One of the most prominent L.A Union leader.

Chester can be easily be an Leader of a Fascist party in Post FGW America and with his leadership can be Growth into popularly with the U.S public
The white US characters tended to lean left whilst the white CSA characters right.
I don’t know about that Conclusion bro, Yankee were Militarist and Fully believed in Rememberance movement which was Basically American Nationalism but on steroids. Both US and CSA were deeply Nationalistic country at the time, yes there a large Socialist movement in the Northern states but they were no where near as Popular as Remembrance movement to the U.S public and especially the Military support.

US socialism was a small minority and even if they are big enough to as popular as in OSV, they still have to compete with the Rememberance and especially with the Fasicist Movement led by Yankee Hitler to control Philadelphia.
 
I think people overestimate the strength of the US and underestimate the strength of the Entente in North America, even Turtledove himself.

Here's how I see the big-picture overview in 1914:

The East: Let's assume the Confederates don't play offensively. The US needs to advance 100 miles on a narrow front stretching from the Blue Ridge to the Bay, all the while making several major opposed river crossings, and doing so in a combination of urban terrain (Alexandria and Fredericksburg being the main ones), and densely wooded areas (the Wilderness/Chancellorsville). They also need to do this against an enemy which likely has planned for such an attack for 50 years, and is thus well dug-in. Even if US forces outnumber the Confederates 2:1, they're looking at a very bloody and slow-going campaign that would take a year or two to reach Richmond at best. And, for reference, it took Grant about a year to advance from Spotsylvania to Richmond in 1864-1865, and that was against an enemy he outnumbered by around 3:1 with comparatively minimal pre-planned defenses. You're asking the North to add an extra 50 miles of ground to that, on top of an enemy with better numerical parity and well-prepared defenses. It won't be pretty. Historically we know such terrain was a quagmire for WW1 generals, as evidenced by battles such as the Meuse-Argonne Offensive, Belleau Wood, etc. so I don't see the US getting very far within the first few years of a war.

The West: Luckily for the North, Louisville sits right at the border, and there is plentiful infrastructure at it to undertake a large operation. The main obstacle, however, is that they would have to make an opposed river-crossing against a built-up urban area in ground they tried attacking once before, so the Confederates have likely prepared plenty of defenses in anticipation of a future assault. It will be bloody and slow going, but I think the North would be able to pull it off by the end of 1914. The problem then becomes, however, how they advance from there. Contrary to popular belief, the terrain is still narrow, being shorter than the length of the Western Front from the Mississippi River to the Appalachian Mountains. It also involves multiple large river crossings, mountainous terrain with very little in the way of infrastructure, and an enemy that enjoys decent interior lines. Still, the North's numerical advantage would likely tell, and I imagine they'd be able to at least capture Nashville by 1915. The question really is what the hell they do when they get to Chattanooga. They'd not only have to make an opposed river crossing, but they'd also have to do so against a major urban center flanked on either side by flat-topped Lookout Mountain (which provides excellent artillery positions) and Missionary Ridge. Flanking around the city opens them up to enfilading fire from Lookout Mountain, which runs all the way to near Fort Payne, Alabama. Flanking to the east would mean they'd have to cross a series of mountain ridges to get back to the railroad supply line that runs south from Chattanooga, through Dalton, and on to Atlanta. Even if the North manages to capture the city, they'd likely be stuck in the valley getting pummeled by the Southerners occupying the heights around it day in and day out. The South IMO could hold that position almost indefinitely, assuming they're able to bring up reinforcements and ammunition from Atlanta without much trouble. What you'd be looking at thus is something akin to Isonzo; the North bashing its head against the fortress of Chattanooga for a year or more while racking up casualties and not much else.

I could easily see a scenario where, by the autumn of 1916, the Northern public simply becomes tired of taking hundreds of thousands of casualties in the Wilderness of Virginia and the mountains of Tennessee and elects a pro-peace candidate who signs an armistice with the Entente.
If the USA followed the main strategic doctrine of the era then you would end up with the above scenario.

However, there is an alternative, the North American version of the Burstyn motorised gun. Given the design was around in 1911 there would be time to develop it before the start of the Great War. On OTL both the Austro-Hungarians and the Germans turned it down. OK the details were vague, but even if they had not been the Germans and Austro-Hungarian war plans did not really need a proto -tank to implement them.

In contrast the USA know that they will have to break through defensive lines. If Burstyn's design landed on Custer's desk and he used his pull with the Pentagon a unit or two of motorised guns under his command could be ready for the Great War. Obviously the TL-191 doctrine of dispersing them would be ordered, but Custer could be relied onto ignore it and go for an armoured thrust through the CSA lines.

There is still the matter of river crossings and it is going to be bloody on "non-Custer" fronts. However, a pro-war President could easily be elected in 1916 because the casualites are lower than proposed above.
 
I think people overestimate the strength of the US and underestimate the strength of the Entente in North America, even Turtledove himself.

Here's how I see the big-picture overview in 1914:

The East: Let's assume the Confederates don't play offensively. The US needs to advance 100 miles on a narrow front stretching from the Blue Ridge to the Bay, all the while making several major opposed river crossings, and doing so in a combination of urban terrain (Alexandria and Fredericksburg being the main ones), and densely wooded areas (the Wilderness/Chancellorsville). They also need to do this against an enemy which likely has planned for such an attack for 50 years, and is thus well dug-in. Even if US forces outnumber the Confederates 2:1, they're looking at a very bloody and slow-going campaign that would take a year or two to reach Richmond at best. And, for reference, it took Grant about a year to advance from Spotsylvania to Richmond in 1864-1865, and that was against an enemy he outnumbered by around 3:1 with comparatively minimal pre-planned defenses. You're asking the North to add an extra 50 miles of ground to that, on top of an enemy with better numerical parity and well-prepared defenses. It won't be pretty. Historically we know such terrain was a quagmire for WW1 generals, as evidenced by battles such as the Meuse-Argonne Offensive, Belleau Wood, etc. so I don't see the US getting very far within the first few years of a war.

The West: Luckily for the North, Louisville sits right at the border, and there is plentiful infrastructure at it to undertake a large operation. The main obstacle, however, is that they would have to make an opposed river-crossing against a built-up urban area in ground they tried attacking once before, so the Confederates have likely prepared plenty of defenses in anticipation of a future assault. It will be bloody and slow going, but I think the North would be able to pull it off by the end of 1914. The problem then becomes, however, how they advance from there. Contrary to popular belief, the terrain is still narrow, being shorter than the length of the Western Front from the Mississippi River to the Appalachian Mountains. It also involves multiple large river crossings, mountainous terrain with very little in the way of infrastructure, and an enemy that enjoys decent interior lines. Still, the North's numerical advantage would likely tell, and I imagine they'd be able to at least capture Nashville by 1915. The question really is what the hell they do when they get to Chattanooga. They'd not only have to make an opposed river crossing, but they'd also have to do so against a major urban center flanked on either side by flat-topped Lookout Mountain (which provides excellent artillery positions) and Missionary Ridge. Flanking around the city opens them up to enfilading fire from Lookout Mountain, which runs all the way to near Fort Payne, Alabama. Flanking to the east would mean they'd have to cross a series of mountain ridges to get back to the railroad supply line that runs south from Chattanooga, through Dalton, and on to Atlanta. Even if the North manages to capture the city, they'd likely be stuck in the valley getting pummeled by the Southerners occupying the heights around it day in and day out. The South IMO could hold that position almost indefinitely, assuming they're able to bring up reinforcements and ammunition from Atlanta without much trouble. What you'd be looking at thus is something akin to Isonzo; the North bashing its head against the fortress of Chattanooga for a year or more while racking up casualties and not much else.

I could easily see a scenario where, by the autumn of 1916, the Northern public simply becomes tired of taking hundreds of thousands of casualties in the Wilderness of Virginia and the mountains of Tennessee and elects a pro-peace candidate who signs an armistice with the Entente.
There also not even mentioned that they will be Several and Numerous of Confederates citizens who will gladly resisted and sabotage in Occupied Yank areas in the Kentucky, Sequoyah and Tennessee to damage the American war against the South in the FGW. They got many guns from pistols, shotgun rifles etc that can be taken down to the Yanks occupiers especially with their Brutal reprisals and abuse that will Motivate Rebs free shooter to addicted many Deal helmets from dead Yankee soldier.

This is not Europe who doesn’t allowed their citizens with weapons but CSA and Canada does meaning Several of armed resistance groups will definitely make the average Yankee soldier to be a lot more paranoid and exhausted with dealing the Reb partisans who will be Pain in the ass. For putting in that perspective in OTL to your guys understand Imagine Vietnam, Afghanistan and Philippines style of resistance against the Yank.

That will also be a be Factor for possible US defeats in FGW
 
Franc-tireurs will be a problem for the Union, yes, similar to what the Germans experienced in Belgium but on a larger scale.
No they would be a problem for the former CSA white population. Wound a US soldier and 10 people get executed. Kill one and 100 get executed. And that is nothing compared to when Lavochin's Louts torch entire villages. In the 30s the RAF used chemical weapons on Iraqi forts. Given the use of gas in the TL-191 a rebellious town could be nerve gassed after due warning that the bombers are coming.

This may not stop franc-tireurs, but a fair few will be shopped by neighbours who rather not be massacred.
 
I think people overestimate the strength of the US and underestimate the strength of the Entente in North America, even Turtledove himself.

Here's how I see the big-picture overview in 1914:

The East: Let's assume the Confederates don't play offensively. The US needs to advance 100 miles on a narrow front stretching from the Blue Ridge to the Bay, all the while making several major opposed river crossings, and doing so in a combination of urban terrain (Alexandria and Fredericksburg being the main ones), and densely wooded areas (the Wilderness/Chancellorsville). They also need to do this against an enemy which likely has planned for such an attack for 50 years, and is thus well dug-in. Even if US forces outnumber the Confederates 2:1, they're looking at a very bloody and slow-going campaign that would take a year or two to reach Richmond at best. And, for reference, it took Grant about a year to advance from Spotsylvania to Richmond in 1864-1865, and that was against an enemy he outnumbered by around 3:1 with comparatively minimal pre-planned defenses. You're asking the North to add an extra 50 miles of ground to that, on top of an enemy with better numerical parity and well-prepared defenses. It won't be pretty. Historically we know such terrain was a quagmire for WW1 generals, as evidenced by battles such as the Meuse-Argonne Offensive, Belleau Wood, etc. so I don't see the US getting very far within the first few years of a war.

The West: Luckily for the North, Louisville sits right at the border, and there is plentiful infrastructure at it to undertake a large operation. The main obstacle, however, is that they would have to make an opposed river-crossing against a built-up urban area in ground they tried attacking once before, so the Confederates have likely prepared plenty of defenses in anticipation of a future assault. It will be bloody and slow going, but I think the North would be able to pull it off by the end of 1914. The problem then becomes, however, how they advance from there. Contrary to popular belief, the terrain is still narrow, being shorter than the length of the Western Front from the Mississippi River to the Appalachian Mountains. It also involves multiple large river crossings, mountainous terrain with very little in the way of infrastructure, and an enemy that enjoys decent interior lines. Still, the North's numerical advantage would likely tell, and I imagine they'd be able to at least capture Nashville by 1915. The question really is what the hell they do when they get to Chattanooga. They'd not only have to make an opposed river crossing, but they'd also have to do so against a major urban center flanked on either side by flat-topped Lookout Mountain (which provides excellent artillery positions) and Missionary Ridge. Flanking around the city opens them up to enfilading fire from Lookout Mountain, which runs all the way to near Fort Payne, Alabama. Flanking to the east would mean they'd have to cross a series of mountain ridges to get back to the railroad supply line that runs south from Chattanooga, through Dalton, and on to Atlanta. Even if the North manages to capture the city, they'd likely be stuck in the valley getting pummeled by the Southerners occupying the heights around it day in and day out. The South IMO could hold that position almost indefinitely, assuming they're able to bring up reinforcements and ammunition from Atlanta without much trouble. What you'd be looking at thus is something akin to Isonzo; the North bashing its head against the fortress of Chattanooga for a year or more while racking up casualties and not much else.

I could easily see a scenario where, by the autumn of 1916, the Northern public simply becomes tired of taking hundreds of thousands of casualties in the Wilderness of Virginia and the mountains of Tennessee and elects a pro-peace candidate who signs an armistice with the Entente.
I'd love to see this wargamed. The west would be a brutal campaign
No they would be a problem for the former CSA white population. Wound a US soldier and 10 people get executed. Kill one and 100 get executed. And that is nothing compared to when Lavochin's Louts torch entire villages. In the 30s the RAF used chemical weapons on Iraqi forts. Given the use of gas in the TL-191 a rebellious town could be nerve gassed after due warning that the bombers are coming.

This may not stop franc-tireurs, but a fair few will be shopped by neighbours who rather not be massacred.
That sounds like a surefire way to win over the people you're hopeful about re-annexing to your country. Being shitty to the Canadians in 1812 straight up drove them into the arms of the British when a huge percentage of them were pretty ambivalent about the conflict when it started.

You don't seriously think that the soldiers might have problem with murdering a hundred random civilians (and probably innocent) civilians?
 
Franc-tireurs will be a problem for the Union, yes, similar to what the Germans experienced in Belgium but on a larger scale.
German didn’t actually had Franc-tireurs in Belgium during FGW but even if they are Active, they were very very few of them in Reality.
Meanwhile the Union army will had to deals with the Rebs and Canuck with legal arms who will make the Yank feel unsafe in Occupied Kentucky and Ontario during FGW.
Those Billy’s troops will faced off a Dozens of Militamen and free shooter who will make the Background of the Trenches in American front a lot more difficult to manage and maintain a stable front line against the Rebs military
No they would be a problem for the former CSA white population. Wound a US soldier and 10 people get executed. Kill one and 100 get executed. And that is nothing compared to when Lavochin's Louts torch entire villages. In the 30s the RAF used chemical weapons on Iraqi forts. Given the use of gas in the TL-191 a rebellious town could be nerve gassed after due warning that the bombers are coming.
First of all, It will just make US occupiers so much worse in occupied CSA in FGW and we don’t even talking about Postwar CSA bro, but even if they were Trying to Brutal stomped down any resistance by Execution Hundred and Burned Thousands of towns across the Occupied CSA that would only Support the Franc-Tireurs more and likely would join on mass.
This may not stop franc-tireurs, but a fair few will be shopped by neighbours who rather not be massacred.
Dude that type of extreme brutality by the Yankee occupiers were only just make the Franc-Tireurs even more bold and want to kill the Yankees even more than ever especially they have multiple weapons left by the CSA army and Bought guns.

Here’s a example for you, Germany while they were occupying Yugoslavia adopt a policy that you ascribed in your post.
The Results with that policy for 1 Dead Fritz for Every 100 Yugoslav citizen got killed?

The Yugoslav Partisans became the Best Successful Anti-Nazis fighter Group of all of Europe and Completely liberated himself out of German occupation during the Fascist collapse in Eastern Front in WW2.
And Yugoslavia likely have no armed citizens and strict gun laws before the Invasion by the Axis power.
Now imagine Country who is armed resistance people who have history with conflict with you and your are occupied their home, it would be difficult to manage with that
I'd love to see this wargamed. The west would be a brutal campaign
Definitely yes specifically the Urban CSA citizen who will go full Insurgents Mode on the Yankee forces while they tried to capture the CSA Cities.
I would be FGW version of Fallujah but on Steroid's with highly be Serveral of them to come as the Yankees army advance to the Western Front ironically
You don't seriously think that the soldiers might have problem with murdering a hundred random civilians (and probably innocent) civilians?
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Ask the Germans Wehrmacht in Poland, Yugoslavia and specifically Soviet Union about that
 
You don't seriously think that the soldiers might have problem with murdering a hundred random civilians (and probably innocent) civilians?

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Ask the Germans Wehrmacht in Poland, Yugoslavia and specifically Soviet Union about that
Or the Sovier troops in Poland, Germany, etc. Or American colonists fighting the native Americans. Or the Franks who did a number on Jerusalem during the First Crusade.

If the inhabitants of the former CSA are seen as less than human or there is a matter of revenge, soldiers don't have problems killing innocent civilians. And if the situation really gets out of control bring in the Air Force. Things don't look quite so vivid from five thousand feet. Just a target on a map.
 
A different era in a war that involved a genocidal regime, none of which applies to America invading its neighbours and whose citizens share a common history, religion, and language. Such atrocities being committed by Western powers would have shocked everyone in that era.
Reasonable comment. It is worth noting though that the American, British and Germans in WW2 had a common history and religion so few atrocities were done on each other. The main exception was aerial bombing of cities.
 
Wait how about Utah after FGW Entente victory or at least a Stalemates.
They been oppressed for over 37 Years by the Yankee occupiers and even US Government has banned Mormon religions from being practice as well as being Marshal law.

What will happened to Utah after the Yankee got the big lick by the Rebs and Canuck twice in FGW?
Would they had a Ireland SV treatment of being Independent or still a U.S. territory but No Military rule and Mormons practice their religion freely
 
Wait how about Utah after FGW Entente victory or at least a Stalemates.
They been oppressed for over 37 Years by the Yankee occupiers and even US Government has banned Mormon religions from being practice as well as being Marshal law.

What will happened to Utah after the Yankee got the big lick by the Rebs and Canuck twice in FGW?
Would they had a Ireland SV treatment of being Independent or still a U.S. territory but No Military rule and Mormons practice their religion freely
No too far from allies and surrounded by the USA. to badly quote Lincoln about south carolina "its too small for a nation and too big for an insane asylum"
 
To badly quote Lincoln about south carolina "its too small for a nation and too big for an insane asylum"
Lincoln just brutalized SC without even the Civil War was even started, but being Serious is that Utah will be North America Poland if they were Independent country.
As we see in Presbyterian Butcher AU that Fascist US would destroy Deseret nation from the highest building to the Dirt Mormon built
 
Martin was initially at least somewhat politically conservative. (He voted for Roosevelt in 1916 after all.) It was his experiences in the strikes after the FGW that led to him becoming a labor organizer and a Socialist. And even as a Socialist he still always favored a strong military and a hard line foreign policy. (To the point that he even voted for Taft in 1940 because he thought that Smith was too soft on the CSA.) Thus in a timeline where the US loses the First Great War due to Debs being elected and coming to terms with the Entente, it would be easy to imagine Martin becoming embittered against the Socialists and going hard right.
But their a problem with Chester Martin being Yankee Hitler and that is he had Empathy to Innocent people getting murdered remember.
Chester was Horrified by Lt. Lavochkin Brutalized the Rebs civilian and he had many sleepless nights by Lavochkin and his band of thugs killing those hardeeville residents.

How will Chester will be Yankee Fascist when he was still got scarred and had Nightmares from Hardeeville slaughterhouse?
 
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bguy

Donor
But their a problem with Chester Martin being Yankee Hitler and that is had Empathy to Innocent people getting murdered remember.
Chester was Horrified by Lt. Lavochkin Brutalized the Rebs civilian and he had many sleepless nights by Lavochkin and his band of thugs killing those hardeeville residents.

How will Chester will be Yankee Fascist when he was still got scarred and had Nightmares from Hardeeville slaughterhouse?

The embittered Chester Martin that emerges from the US that is defeated in the Great War might end up being a very different man than the one from the canon storyline though. (Jake Featherston wasn't a monster at the beginning of the story either afterall. It took Featherston's experiences in the war and afterwards to turn him into one.)

And IIRC Martin did seriously consider murdering Lavochkin to put an end to his rampages. That shows that even the good version of Martin was still potentially capable of murder when he believed it was necessary for a good cause. That makes it seem plausible to me that a darker version of Martin could reach the point where he would sign off on killings "for the greater good."

That said I still think it is far more likely that a US that loses the First Great War would go the other way and become extremely pacifistic rather than that they would turn into a fascist, revanchist state. I mentioned Martin as a possible US dictator just because I think he is one of the POV characters in the story that could most plausibly become the dictator of a fascist state if the TL-191 US did go down the fascist path not that I think the US becoming fascist after losing the First Great War is actually likely to happen.
 
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