WI: Conde and Turenne VS Gustavus Adolphus

WI: Conde and Turenne VS Gustavus Adolphus

  • Conde and Turenne win

    Votes: 5 26.3%
  • Gustavus Adolphus wins

    Votes: 12 63.2%
  • Tie

    Votes: 2 10.5%

  • Total voters
    19
WI: Conde and Turenne VS Gustavus Adolphus
Gustavus Adolphus was the Protestant King of Sweden during the Thirty Years War. He was one of the most competent and successful commanders of the 17th century. Gustavus was an innovative commander who did much to improve the efficiency of the Swedish army. Gustavus’s most famous campaign was from 1630-1632 in northern Germany. This campaign is remembered for three battles First Breitenfeld, the Battle of Rain and the Battle of Lutzen. All three battles Gustavus won but he was sadly killed at Lutzen in 1632.
Louis le Grande Conde and Vicomte Turenne were France’s two greatest generals during the Thirty Years War. Apart they preformed well and when they were together they seemed almost unstoppable. In the Thirty Years War they had two great victories together at the Battles of Freiburg (1644) and the Second Battle of Nordlingen (1645). The victory at Nordlingen was an impressive victory they routed the Imperial force and killed its commander.
French Forces
12,000 infantry, 7,000 cavalry, 36 guns
French strength is in its cavalry which are made up of a mixture including elite German heavy Cavalry and dismounted French Dragoons.
Swedish Forces
12,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, 60 guns
Swedish strength is in its light maneuverable artillery commanded by Lennart Torstensson


source
Turenne by Henry Hozier
Marshall Turenne by Thomas Loungeuville
Battle of the Dunes by Roy Morris
Masters of the Battleifld by Julian Thompson
 
Gustavus Adolphus probably wins
The year they can reasonably meet without any ISOTs is 1644 - providing Gustavus-Adolphus lives till this time. This means that he'll face a young man barely out of his teens (Conde'll be 23 at this point) and 33-years old young general, whose commanding style was heavily influenced by Dutch tactic paradigm, which is what Swedish own paradigm based on.
Second, Turenne and Conde were not as great as team. At Nordlingen they cooperated, but did not share their tactics. An example can be their different approach to cavalry attacks - Turenne preferred to attack galloping, not unlike what Swedes did. Conde preferred fast trot of horses as mode of attack.
However, if they share responsibilities wise - like Turenne takes over command of heavy cavalry and Conde does what he does best with dragoons, then I don't see tactical experience edge working that well for Gustavus Adolphus.
 
Also, Swedish regiment cannons were not a strength but THE strength. Unless we see something like Light Brigade Attack... French cavalry is going to be decimated.
 
Gustavus Adolphus probably wins
The year they can reasonably meet without any ISOTs is 1644 - providing Gustavus-Adolphus lives till this time. This means that he'll face a young man barely out of his teens (Conde'll be 23 at this point) and 33-years old young general, whose commanding style was heavily influenced by Dutch tactic paradigm, which is what Swedish own paradigm based on.
Second, Turenne and Conde were not as great as team. At Nordlingen they cooperated, but did not share their tactics. An example can be their different approach to cavalry attacks - Turenne preferred to attack galloping, not unlike what Swedes did. Conde preferred fast trot of horses as mode of attack.
However, if they share responsibilities wise - like Turenne takes over command of heavy cavalry and Conde does what he does best with dragoons, then I don't see tactical experience edge working that well for Gustavus Adolphus.


very good analysis thank you:D
 
The main thing that handicaps the French is that Turenne is of the same military paradigm as Gustavus Adolphus and his tactical decisions can be predicted.
Young Conde's straightforward approach will SUCK against a force with well trained light regiment artillery. Those are not Spanish infantry and concept of mobile artillery was Swedish army advantage well into 1640ies - they were those who almost perfected it, which was of great help to Gustavus Adolphus and Charles X Gustav in their wars of conquest.
 
I don't understand - what are the geopolitical circumstances that would result in France fighting on the opposite side from Sweden? I don't see much value in historical cage matches - what's your POD? How do we get to this point.
 
I don't understand - what are the geopolitical circumstances that would result in France fighting on the opposite side from Sweden? I don't see much value in historical cage matches - what's your POD? How do we get to this point.


I did a whole series of this like 5 months ago, i can be a little strange looking at it now. Its simple France fights with its fellow catholic's in the Thirty Years War and thus goes head to head with sweden.
 
I don't think that is at all plausible. What possible French interest would be advanced by fighting on Spain's side? France either stays out or fights against Spain.
 
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