WI:Communist Spain

Okay let's say through several PoD's such as Franco dying, less Axis intervention and more Soviet, the Republicans win the Spanish Civil War by 1938. By then the Communists have significant control and a quick coup followed by purges ensue whilst a Peoples Republic of Spain is declared allying itself militarily and indeologically with the USSR.

How does this affect Spain,WW2 and the World in general?
 
Oh yeah just take ideas from my thread why don't ya...:rolleyes:

I'd go with Goldstein's ideas that if Spain falls to the Communists, then it'd risk the status of Fascism as the greatest threat. Maybe resulting in the justification of appeasement, as a strong Germany to help halt the tide of Communism. Myabe Germany takes the place of the USSR as the 'Enemy of my enemy' kind of Ally.
 

Markus

Banned
How does this affect Spain,WW2 and the World in general?

German invasion in 1941, fascist government form 1942 to 44/45 followed by democratically elected ones after the war. The drain on German manpower should be minimal in 41 given the deep divisions of the spanish society.

Torch might be different, maybe the Allies land in Spain in stead of NA. :confused:
 
Okay let's say through several PoD's such as Franco dying, less Axis intervention and more Soviet, the Republicans win the Spanish Civil War by 1938. By then the Communists have significant control and a quick coup followed by purges ensue whilst a Peoples Republic of Spain is declared allying itself militarily and indeologically with the USSR.

How does this affect Spain,WW2 and the World in general?

I question the communists ability to seize control from the Republicans, even with enough backing Anglo-Franco intervention is surely to follow
 
I'd say a second SCW would occur in short order. IDK if Germany would decide it was worth fighting over at the time.
 
I'd say a second SCW would occur in short order. IDK if Germany would decide it was worth fighting over at the time.

Even IF the Communists took power, and even IF Hitler decided not to invade, it's not like Communist Spain's going to have any effect on the European war. OTL Nationalist Spain was too war ravaged to do much, this new communist Spain would be too.

A Communist Spain after WW2 gets interesting now. You could very well see the Allies feeding weapons and supplies to the plenty of anti-communists in the country, which could spark yet another civil war.

Could even be a boiling point, if the Soviets get overly involved.
 
Even IF the Communists took power, and even IF Hitler decided not to invade, it's not like Communist Spain's going to have any effect on the European war.

It would take large amounts of German troops to invade and occupy.
 
Did I say anything to the contrary or were you just quoting me for fun? Was implying Germany didn't really make the best of descisions there :)
 
It would take large amounts of German troops to invade and occupy.

Logic and Hilter don't always collide in the same sentence. He very well could decide that a communist Spain has to go. Franco's group would have some survivors, she he could count on some support.

Just saying, that after the SCW, Spain's going to be in no shape to take on anyone. Especially given the only country that's going to be willing to give em a hand isn't going to be able to send supplies, weapons, munitions, ect over. So unless, Hilter attacks, they'd likely sit the war out just as Franco did.
 
Did I say anything to the contrary or were you just quoting me for fun? Was implying Germany didn't really make the best of descisions there :)

Sorry, I misread your original statement, I thought you were saying that a German invasion of Spain was unlikely.

Anyway supposing the Germans do invade Spain at the same time or shortly after Barbarossa how does the war pan out?
 
Sorry, I misread your original statement, I thought you were saying that a German invasion of Spain was unlikely.

Anyway supposing the Germans do invade Spain at the same time or shortly after Barbarossa how does the war pan out?

And I wasn't talking to you :( *sigh*
 
Sorry, I misread your original statement, I thought you were saying that a German invasion of Spain was unlikely.

Anyway supposing the Germans do invade Spain at the same time or shortly after Barbarossa how does the war pan out?

I'd imagine Hitler would face some sort of prolonged guerrilla war much like Napoleonic France faced after the Peninsular War which will drain away troops from other fronts for counterinsurgency actions and to prop up any fascist-like regime there. If the Nationalist forces are united under a German/Italian-installed puppet ruler, I could see Spain becoming as much a drain on Germany as Italy was. Maybe we'd see an invasion of Spain instead of Italy since Spain is clearly on the periphery of German power and influence. It would also relieve Gibraltar which would likely be besieged since it's so hard to actually take, nigh impossible I'd say. Moving artillery and tanks around over that thin well-defendable stretch of land is suicidal and it's hard to get them there in the first place with Spain's piss poor railroad network (not that northern Italy had a great infrastructure for any kind of offensive or defensive modern war).

The invasion of Spain would pan out similarly to Italy with a long and relatively successful defence mounted by the Germans as the terrain is good for defence, the difference being that the left opposition will reluctantly work with the invading Allies who will seek to impose a moderate regime instead od re-establishing the hardcore communist/Stalinist one since any Soviet backed Spain would be a constant threat to alt-NATO's rear. Germany would likely hold on at least as long as they did in Italy. Eventually events in this alt-TL's D-Day (be it in Normandy or Calais) will force them to leave or be cut off as the Allies occupy France.

All in all, I'd guess that Spain would take at least as much troops to occupy as Yugoslavia which was like ten divisions at least IIRC. Those ten divisions not on the eastern front could cut Stalin some slack, allowing him to recuperate and perhaps score a few more victories, allowing him to grab more of eastern Europe. War ends a few weeks earlier than it historically did with perhaps the USSR profiting the most even if Spain doesn't go commie again after the war.
 
Just a thought...

But a Communist Spain - interesting. Wouldn't it be possible that instead of a Vichy France, there'd have been a "French Socialist Republic of Vichy" - or some form of Spanish "Liberation" of portions of France in 1940? Hitler wasn't averse to giving out treats to countries helping him chop up others - Poland, Hungary, and Lithuania got chunks of Czech territory, the USSR got hug gobbets of Poland, Roumania, and the Baltics.

I think it would be an interesting phenomenon to see a Sovietised portion of France. With the huge popularity of the left in France at the time, it might've worked, and been a far better buffer against Hitler than Poland ever was.

IMHO, with Italy's struggles in Greece and Albania, Hitler might well have let Spain have a chunk of France. This might've led to Roumania falling into the Axis sooner, but - IMHO! - would've strengthened the resolve of Bulgaria and Jugoslavija to resist. Who knows, a Soviet France would've helped nab more of the vile Ustashes of Croatia, and beheaded - or at least weakened - the 5th Column there, or at least the information would've given Stalin more leverage with the Jugoslav Crown.
 
Probably not as seeing Stalin wanted to avoid war with Britain.

There would probably not be a Vichy France at all as Germany would have to keep a significant border defense even if they didn't invade.
 
The reign in Spain

Although they had a strong foothold in the Republican administration I am not sure they wanted to sieze power rather than prop up a popular front government. They spent quite a bit of their time in Catalonia handing land and factories back to their owners and fighting the anarchists who had siezed factories. Orwell describes a civil war within a civil war in Homage to Catalonia and mentions that they often used the Guada Civil to keep order as did the Fascists.

I suspect Stalin would have restrained the communists as he was wary of any communist movement that showed signs of independence and a revolution in Spain probably wouldn't have coincided with the Soviet Unions interests. As it was they helped scupper the republicans by withdrawing fighter aircraft in 1938 and withdrawing the International Brigade
 

Eurofed

Banned
I'd go with Goldstein's ideas that if Spain falls to the Communists, then it'd risk the status of Fascism as the greatest threat. Maybe resulting in the justification of appeasement, as a strong Germany to help halt the tide of Communism. Myabe Germany takes the place of the USSR as the 'Enemy of my enemy' kind of Ally.

I find it more than a little odd that almost everyone is going with the arbitrary assumption that a Communist Spain and victory in SCW is not going to butterfly WWII away as we know it, when the opposite is the most likely outcome. I chalk it as tendency to think within the box.

Therefore, I go and say, in the case that, as it is most likely, a Communist outpost in their backyard makes Britain and France assume that what Germany does to Czechia and Poland is really not that important and that Stalin is the real enemy, how a Communist Spain would affect an anti-Soviet WWII?
 
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