WI: Columbus found a Mesoamerican civilization?

What if during either on his first voyage, or on one his subsequent return voyages, Christopher Columbus landed in Mexico or Central America, and ended up stumbling upon one of the Mesoamerican civilizations, like the Aztecs or Maya?
 
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Well, I believe he did encounter an unfortunate Maya merchant canoe off the coast of of Yucatan or Honduras and grabbed some of the merchandise. Actually, I'm not sure what the overall effect of this would be other than a possibly earlier round of conquistadoring.
 

NothingNow

Banned
Actually, I'm not sure what the overall effect of this would be other than a possibly earlier round of conquistadoring.

He mouths off to the wrong person, and gets killed for his trouble, sparing everyone having to deal with that fucker having any authority for much longer.

It'd make later contacts a hell of a lot less problematic really.
 

katchen

Banned
Actually the impact could be quite significant. Columbus keeps sailing west until he bumps into the Olmec Coast and can go no further. The Olmec obviously are part of a well organized state. Columbus brings back some Olmec people to Spain, teaching them Spanish along the way.
By the time they reach the Spanish Court, they can communicate well enough that the Olmecs are able to tell Thier Majesties that yes, there are a fierce people called Azteca who have subjugated them and sacrifice some of their people regularly at their capital; a place called Tenochtitlan in high mountains. And no, they do not have cannon or arquebuses or have ever seen horses before.
On the strength of that, Ferdinand and Isabella mount a formal Crusade to conquer Los Aztecas, sending a fleet of 15 ships and 1000 men and horses. And they do conquer Tenochtitlan in 1494--under Columbus, who is made Viceroy (though he is not the greatest administrator and still gets in trouble).
Spain gets American gold earlier. This may affect it's fortunes in the Italian Wars against the French. By 1496, the Spanish have discovered the Pacific Ocean from Mexico. And by 1497, dispatched shipwrights to build ships to explore the Pacific Ocean, both the Isabellan Coast (Yes, they decided to name it after the Queen) and to search for Asia. Columbus is permitted to go on one last voyage on the Pacific. He discovers Hawaii, Taiwan, China, Korea and then Japan before returning via the Westerlies in 1502, beating the Portuguese to East Asia.
A voyage by Pinzon discovers the Inca Empire of Huayan Capac and Araucanian Chile before finally the southern tip of South America. Peru and Chile prove more difficult to conquer until smallpox decimate the population. Exploration voyages in the Pacific south of the Equator discover the Marqueasas Islands, Tuvalu, the Solomon Islands and the New Guinea mainland before discovering the Spice Islands--again, reaching them before the Portuguese. Australia is discovered and rounded via the Southern Westerlies. A fairly orderly system is finally established via the Treaty of Tordesillas with the Portuguese in Africa, Brazil and the Indian Ocean, the Spanish in Mexico, Peru, Chibcha, Maya, Mapuchea, Hawaii, Taiwan, Ryukyus, Cheju Island, Philippines, Sulawesi, Sumbawa, Flores, Timor, Moluccas, New Guinea, and Australlia and trading with Japan, and Korea and both trading with China.
This lasts until the Protestant nations and France come on the scene.
 
Would it be possible for him to transfer some European germs to the locals, thereby giving them a chance to build up antibodies before Europeans come over in greater numbers?
 

katchen

Banned
Only if things in Spain got disorganized enough to where the Spanish did not follow up on his discoveries for about 20-30 years and pandemics had time to run their courses and antibodies transfer via mothers to the next generation.Part of the problem is that Europeans have so many different diseases. Besides Smallpox, there's diptheria, measles, mumps (which can render adults who catch it sterile), herpes chickenpox, rubella, mononucleosis, Epstein Barr Virus, pertussis (whooping cough), influenza strains, tuberculosis, typhus from pigs, even toxoplasmosis from cats once they get loose. It all adds up and they're not all going to turn up on one crew in one voyage. Sorry.:(
 
Would it be possible for him to transfer some European germs to the locals, thereby giving them a chance to build up antibodies before Europeans come over in greater numbers?

I'm going to say no. At the furthest it would mean that the conquistadors arrive when certain areas are at their population nadir. At any rate, those diseases sometimes took decades to spread from area to area, so they couldn't possibly have enough time.
 
Would it be possible for him to transfer some European germs to the locals, thereby giving them a chance to build up antibodies before Europeans come over in greater numbers?

The anti-bodies aren't going to do incredibly much, either. Epidemics were still effecting Native populations for centuries after contact.
 
If Columbus finds a Mesoamerican civilization and sails back, he could very well urge the Spanish crown to bypass the Greater Antilles as colonies and sail straight for the mainland to trade gold. That significantly butterflies the effects and nature of first contact in the Americas-the Spanish come prepared for trade rather than to conquer, the Taino have a few decades of breathing room (though in the long run I think they would end up largely extinct as per OTL) and the Mesoamerican civilizations are exposed earlier to the Spanish, their technology, their goals (1. gold 2. gold 3. gold and conversion) and their capabilities, perhaps becoming better prepared for invasion.
 
With any good fortune, the miserable so-and-so ends up atop a pyramid, sans a heart - Kukulkan needs it more than he does at any rate. :)
 
What if during either on his first voyage, or on one his subsequent return voyages, Christopher Columbus landed in Mexico or Central America, and ended up stumbling upon one of the Mesoamerican civilizations, like the Aztecs or Maya?

Earlier contact with urban peoples would drastically alter the trend of Spanish colonization of the New World. The island colonies and plantations would still exist--they're too convenient an easily-secured trading post, a lot easier to fortify in Cuba (after the locals are worked to death) than on a fringe of Mexico. But it was Cortes's one-invasion conquest of the Aztecs that paved the way for the system of OTL--and I suspect earlier and sustained contact with Europe will prevent any Cortes-like campaign. Mexico, the Yucatan, and the Andes might instead more closely resemble a (much more epidemic-prone) India, with European traders and missionaries and mercenaries playing rival factions off against one another for better trade opportunities.
 
The Olmecs were long gone by the time Columbus was bumming around the area.
Actually, at this time there were a different people called "Olmec" by the Nahua. The really ancient Olmecs are only called such because early archaeologists at first believed that the ruins belonged to the later people the Aztecs were familiar with because they lived in the same region.
 
the Taino have a few decades of breathing room (though in the long run I think they would end up largely extinct as per OTL)

Why do you think their extinction is inevitable? A few decades gives them exposure to both Old World diseases and technology.
 
Actually, at this time there were a different people called "Olmec" by the Nahua. The really ancient Olmecs are only called such because early archaeologists at first believed that the ruins belonged to the later people the Aztecs were familiar with because they lived in the same region.

I'm pretty sure the OP wasn't referring to them, though.
 
Why do you think their extinction is inevitable? A few decades gives them exposure to both Old World diseases and technology.

They will perhaps be better psychologically prepared for an attack if they have any dealings with the Spanish, but the Taino are in a very bad position: the land they live on is useful for sugarcane plantations, which creates an incentive to enslave them and work them to death in addition to an incentive to steal their land. The introduction of malaria to the Greater Antilles will prevent recovery from the epidemics of measles and smallpox, and if combined with violence and enslavement, will give the Taino a negative birthrate and cause the population to plunge even further, while European and African migrants will still flood the islands.

I'd say a 'few decades' is not enough for them to gain metallurgy, cavalry, or learn how to manufacture gunpowder. The sociological and economic devastation caused by European epidemics will prevent them from gaining access to these innovations in time to really defend themselves, as their land is relatively easily accessed from Europe and Africa and highly desirable.

EDIT: The Mesoamerican civilizations are in a different position. At least portions of Mesoamerica are in highlands outside of malarial zones, the Mesoamericans have much higher overall population, and they will be able to provide the Spanish what they want (goldgoldgold) in exchange for trade, without the Spanish needing to conquer their land and set up plantations.
 

katchen

Banned
For what Polish Eagle suggests, JOHN CABOT would need to beat his way all the way down the North American coast to the Florida Strait and then across the Florida Strait to Cuba, following the Cuba coast to Pinar del Rio then across the Yucatan Strait to Yucatan and then on to Veracruzana. Difficult, but not impossible and well within the brief Henry VII set for him.
The English were inclined to trade rather than conquer and though they would likely have spread epidemics, they would also have given the Aztecs things like guins and horses they needed to hold off the Spaniards.
Of course once that happens, the English are turning the equivalent of the Mongols loose on much of the rest of Native North America. Imagine the Aztecs with their organization and their human sacrifice ethic turned loose with horses and guns to range over North America. They are being ravaged by European panedemics so they are after captives to recoup their numbers....:eek:
 
For what Polish Eagle suggests, JOHN CABOT would need to beat his way all the way down the North American coast to the Florida Strait and then across the Florida Strait to Cuba, following the Cuba coast to Pinar del Rio then across the Yucatan Strait to Yucatan and then on to Veracruzana. Difficult, but not impossible and well within the brief Henry VII set for him.

What Henry VII wants is irrelevant, the question is whether or not John Cabot can and will make that trip. Frankly, I doubt he could-it's a long trip over some very dangerous coastline, which will take an extremely long time for no guaranteed payoff. I don't think he'll make it.
 
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