WI: Colt Doesn't Win the 1911 United States Army Pistol Contract

[Delta Force]

The 1907 United States Army pistol trials and the eventual 1911 pistol contract resulted in the adoption of the Colt M1911, which continues to influence pistol design and development today. However, the trials were quite competitive. For example, the Webley-Fosbery Automatic Revolver scored higher on the dirt and rust tests than the automatic pistols, and had the advantage of being a revolver during a period in which automatic pistol technology wasn't as developed. Also, the Colt design was one of three automatic pistol designs selected for further evaluation, with the Luger pistol and Savage Model 1907 being the other two competitors. Although Luger decided not to pursue further development after the 1907 trials and dropped out of the evaluations, Savage continued to develop its design and was in close competition with Colt.

What if one of the other designs had been selected by the United States Army? While I don't think the Luger would have had a service life as long as the other designs, might the Webley-Fosbery or Savage have had a life as long as the Colt M1911 and have been as influential? Also, given the historical role the military has played in the development of commercial small arms technology and the historical preference of revolvers for police and civilian users, might the selection of the Webley-Fosbery have led to the design becoming dominant in the American market?

 

[Driftless]

Was the test built on the premise that a .45 was the cartridge of choice, regardless of weapon?

 

[Delta Force]

Was the test built on the premise that a .45 was the cartridge of choice, regardless of weapon?

I forgot to mention that. The Army wanted all pistols to be .45 ACP. However, Luger (he personally attended) brought over ammunition for the trials manufactured with more advanced European powder unavailable in the United States at the time. Everyone else used Army provided ammunition, and I think the Luger was tested with both (doing better with the Luger ammunition).

The surprising thing is that the Colt design didn't have a massive lead in the 1907 trials since the company had some advance knowledge and privately developed a .45 ACP pistol going into the trials. Luger and the others had to modify their designs to use .45 ACP, which caused many companies to drop out and Luger to request that the trials be delayed by a few months to allow him more time to modify the design.

 

[Driftless]

Like many things, I know just enough about a topic to ask a question.

I believe the .45 commitment came from US experience in the Philippines, where the then current pistol round lacked sufficient stopping power. I don't have a clue if the performance was based on the volume or the energy conversion of the propellant, as other 9mm cartridges certainly have been successful since then (1907). But that is hindsight....

What were the factors that eliminated the Savage in the end?

How about the Bergman-Bayard? It was used by the military of the Danes, Spain, Greece, and some by the Germans. I think it's original cartridge was the 9x23, which would have been somewhat comparable to the .45ACP in horsepower.

The Remington Model 51 might have been a contender - if it were available 10 years earlier...

 

[USN vet]

Gratuitous photo of .45 Luger prototype. In collection of Norton Art Gallery, Shreveport, Louisiana.

 

[Delta Force]

Like many things, I know just enough about a topic to ask a question.

I believe the .45 commitment came from US experience in the Philippines, where the then current pistol round lacked sufficient stopping power. I don't have a clue if the performance was based on the volume or the energy conversion of the propellant, as other 9mm cartridges certainly have been successful since then (1907). But that is hindsight....

There were cartridge tests a few years prior that arrived at .45 as the minimum sufficient caliber for a pistol. I don't know how they determined that, but it seems unlikely the Army would have gone for a 9mm based on their interpretation of the test results.

What were the factors that eliminated the Savage in the end?

I'm not sure, but apparently in the four years of additional development it surpassed the Savage, although the Savage started out with superior performance.

How about the Bergman-Bayard? It was used by the military of the Danes, Spain, Greece, and some by the Germans. I think it's original cartridge was the 9x23, which would have been somewhat comparable to the .45ACP in horsepower.

The Bergmann-Bayard was eliminated at the trials because they were unable to get the springs to work to provide semi-automatic operation. Apparently the springs they used were far too heavy.

The Remington Model 51 might have been a contender - if it were available 10 years earlier...

Perhaps it might have been a contender in a later trial, such as in the 1930s.

 

[Crowbar Six]

Actually Forgotten Weapons has tested most of the weapons considered by the US army in the 1907 trials including the Savage.

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/early-automatic-pistols/savage-45/

Here is the text of the 1907 trials report

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-content/uploads/manuals/1907pistoltrials.pdf

To be honest, considering that semi-automatic pistols had been around for such a short time the fact Browning got so close to the right answer is little short of astounding. His short recoil action has been used by almost every firearms manufacturer from FN to Glock (with a number of exceptions) over the last 100 years and is likely to be with us until someone builds a practical laser pistol or blaster.

One of the drivers for the trials was the perceived lack of effectiveness of the .38 revolvers then in use; there were numerous anecdotes of the .38's lack of stopping power in the Philippines campaign which led to a limited reissue of the old Colt .45 pistols .

If the US army had decided not to proceed with the trials having concluded none of the offered pistols were suitable they would likely have simply purchased new revolvers from Colt or Remmington in .45. Indeed the US army introduced the M1917 revolver due to the shortage of 1911's which in turn resulted in the US Navy approaching Remmington who offered the Model 51 as the 1911 was not available.

If WW1 had not ended when it did it is likely the Remmington 51 may have become the standard pistol in both the US Navy and the US Marines.

 

[Mad Missouri]

If the US army had decided not to proceed with the trials having concluded none of the offered pistols were suitable they would likely have simply purchased new revolvers from Colt or Remmington in .45

Seeing how the Army, Navy and Marines was already buying small numbers of Colt M1909 caliber .45 pistols (depending who you believe anywhere from 14,000 to 20,000) its likely if the semi-sutomatic pistol trials fail they just keep buying those. Which might be interesting seeing how the old .45 Government cartridge (It wasn't 45 Lont Colt like everyone seems to think.) for the SSA revolvers isn't the same as M1909 .45 caliber cartridge (Made by Franklin Arsenal until 1914/15.) I believe the rim of the M1909 cartridge was larger to work better in modern revolvers.

 

[Crowbar Six]

I thought Colt only made 23 M1909 semi auto's in 45 ACP, they did make a Colt Army Model 1909 revolver in .45 which was bought by the US armed forces initially for use in the Phillipines.

 

[Mad Missouri]

I thought Colt only made 23 M1909 semi auto's in 45 ACP, they did make a Colt Army Model 1909 revolver in .45 which was bought by the US armed forces initially for use in the Phillipines.

I used the word "pistol" in the generic sense. The US Model 1909 was a revolver base on a large frame Colt design.

 

[TFSmith121]

Blasphemy...you may as well suggest the Ma Deuce can be replaced!

The 1907 United States Army pistol trials and the eventual 1911 pistol contract resulted in the adoption of the Colt M1911, which continues to influence pistol design and development today. What if one of the other designs had been selected by the United States Army?

Blasphemy...you may as well suggest the Ma Deuce can be replaced!

Best,

 

[Delta Force]

What if an automatic revolver such as the Webley-Fosbery or something similar had been adopted? Might automatic revolvers have become popular among traditional revolver users and have kept revolvers in military service for longer?

 

[The Wizard]

What if an automatic revolver such as the Webley-Fosbery or something similar had been adopted? Might automatic revolvers have become popular among traditional revolver users and have kept revolvers in military service for longer?

The advantages of a magazine fed semi-automatic pistol over a "automatic revolver" would have become apparent very quickly in any testing. That being the case the "automatic revolver" had as much a chance of being adopted as "a snowball's chance in h311".

 

[Crowbar Six]

Pistols like the Webley-Fosbury were never that satisfactory as a military weapon. In particular they did very badly when exposed to the mud of the Western front (just too many places for mud to work its way into the exposed tracks and recoil mechanism) and were damn heavy too boot. I have always liked the idea of "automatic" revolvers...very steam punk, but none of them really worked that well.

No military actually adopted them and they only saw active service unofficially as a lot of British Officers bought their pistols privately, no one really cared as long as it would chamber .455. However it really offered little advantage over the Webley service pistol which was a double action weapon which was lighter, more reliable and cheaper.

There were a surprising number of pistols made commercially using similar systems, like the Union Automatic revolver, but all failed due to the relatively high cost of manufacture and a perception of being quirky at best or odd at worst . It was one of those cases where a solution was looking for a problem that had already been solved.

 

[Delta Force]

The M1911 isn't the best semi-automatic pistol currently available, so it's enduring popularity seems to be rooted to some extents with its long military use. If the Army adopted a revolver instead of a semi-automatic pistol, might that selection have gone on to become a classic in the American firearms market, akin to the status enjoyed by the M1911?

 

[phx1138]

It's improbable the Parabellum would have been adopted, IMO; it's linkage mechanism is too complicated & susceptible to dirt & grit.

Had the M1909 been rejected, it's likely the Army would just have gone with a .45 LC Colt or S&W wheelgun. (Yes, after experience in the P.I Insurrection, the .38 was seen as underpowered & a .45 was mandated; nobody had considered a 9mm Mauser/Bergmann-Bayard or *.357 Mag, AFAIK.)

 

[Crowbar Six]

I liked the 1911 a lot, even though it was a .45. I always thought it had a lot smoother action and was just nicer to shoot than a lot of 9mm pistols, I think its down to the swinging link used to unlock the barrel and slide on the 1911 compared to later pistols like the Browning Hi-Power, Glock etc.

 

[BeardedHoplite]

I've always thought that the other serious competitors for the 1911 trials, while thye may have been solid at the time, were designed in a early 20th century mindset. It seemed like the Colt was free of the little quirks (exposed barrel, general shape) of the time and that is probably why it lasted so long. If, say, the Savage was adopted I think it would have had to been replaced by something by the 1930s or 40s.