WI: Cleopatra and Octavian

What are some interesting possibilities if Cleopatra were to become Octavian’s oover instead of Antony’s? And what are some interesting ways that might happen? And how well could this go for Cleopatra?

It is almost certainly too much to imagine the Principate under a Julio-Ptolemaic dynasty (no way the Senatorial elite would be willing to pretend thats not monarchy), but it would make for a nice stretch goal. Perhaps he has an son by her, and he still has all that bad luck with heirs that he did historically. Or perhaps a daughter that can marry someone close like Agrippa, and their son can be heir?
 

Marc

Donor
Very unlikely since she was in her late 30's when she died (39?). Appealing personally, very, but too old and too risky for having children in her times.
 
Very unlikely since she was in her late 30's when she died (39?). Appealing personally, very, but too old and too risky for having children in her times.

If I at all suggested that the POD had to be near Actium, my apologies. Why not play with the division of authority in Rome and/or have Cleopatra pick Octavian instead of Antony?
 
Very unlikely since she was in her late 30's when she died (39?). Appealing personally, very, but too old and too risky for having children in her times.
I think what he meant was what if Octavian got the east while Antony got the west.
Edit:Ninja’ed.
 
Octavian would have never become Cleopatra’s lover under any circumstances, he was way more careful than Antony about his personal image in front of his fellow Romans. Had he been the one to go East, Cleopatra would have probably been his ally, but Octavian would have never blatantly favored her over the other dynasts, he would have also kept Arsinoe alive for insurance against any rebellious attempt on Cleopatra’s part.
 
Octavian would have never become Cleopatra’s lover under any circumstances, he was way more careful than Antony about his personal image in front of his fellow Romans. Had he been the one to go East, Cleopatra would have probably been his ally, but Octavian would have never blatantly favored her over the other dynasts, he would have also kept Arsinoe alive for insurance against any rebellious attempt on Cleopatra’s part.

Never is a pretty strong word for any given person’s romantic escapades.
 
Octavian would have never become Cleopatra’s lover under any circumstances, he was way more careful than Antony about his personal image in front of his fellow Romans. Had he been the one to go East, Cleopatra would have probably been his ally, but Octavian would have never blatantly favored her over the other dynasts, he would have also kept Arsinoe alive for insurance against any rebellious attempt on Cleopatra’s part.

The image of Octavian you have as a cold military man who would never betray Rome was built as a result of Anthony and Cleopatra. He wanted Rome to see him as the embodiment of pure Romanness in contrast to the oriental loving, ladies man Anthony. Though I doubt Octavian would marry Cleo, he might endorse her and her son's rule to ensure her loyalty to Rome. He might even arrange a marriage for her.
 
The image of Octavian you have as a cold military man who would never betray Rome was built as a result of Anthony and Cleopatra. He wanted Rome to see him as the embodiment of pure Romanness in contrast to the oriental loving, ladies man Anthony. Though I doubt Octavian would marry Cleo, he might endorse her and her son's rule to ensure her loyalty to Rome. He might even arrange a marriage for her.

Yeah sure, as I said, it was all public image, and he would surely endorse Cleo, albeit not as blatantly as Antony did. Marrying her though, that would have been a real political blunder, Octavian was dead set from the very beginning on being the sole ruler of Rome, and that meant embodying Roman ideals at their fullest, including of course marrying a Roman matron.

I don’t have an image of Octavian as a cold military man, in fact he was the complete opposite of a military man, utterly incapable of leading armies. He was a man with feelings and passions, who actually married for love and surrounded himself with a circle of genuine friends, but he was the finest politician of his age, and as such in his quest for power behaved ruthlessly without any moral qualms whatsoever, and he was right in doing so, for such behavior his times required. So no, I don’t believe he would have fallen for Cleopatra in any case, simply because it would have been a political burden on his path, just like how she was for Antony in 32 BCE.
 
There seems to be a fair amount of dispute about how much of Octavian's image was cultivated before Actium vs. how much was retroactive propaganda, but I think there is one blindingly apparent fact. Octavian was already the adopted heir of Caesar, and thus did not need any additional legitimacy. Antony, on the other hand, had been estranged from Caesar for several years before their joint consulship, and likely needed Caesarion to provide the legitimacy and relationship to Caesar that he could not otherwise cultivate. Octavian has nothing to gain by marrying Cleopatra, whereas Antony did. I think we can disregard any romantic interest outright, given that the stakes were so high. I doubt Antony was blinded by his own romantic interest, and I don't think Octavian would be either. Antony made a calculated choice when he attached himself to Cleopatra, it just happened to be the wrong choice.
 
Never is a pretty strong word for any given person’s romantic escapades.

And yet it’s the right one, as @Atamolos said, not even Antony and Cleopatra genuinely fell for each other, Antony needed to undermine Octavian and establish himself saldly in the East, Cleopatra needed a guarantee of Roman protection for her rule. Had Dolabella managed to defeat Cassius, she probably would have seduced him too. When things fell apart after Actium, Cleopatra wasted no time in favoring Octavian’s arrival and Antony’s suicide, she was just as ready to jump on the next Roman warlord. Octavian however was way too wise for that. The snake who bit her ultimately came into her chambers with his knowledge and consent.
 
And yet it’s the right one, as @Atamolos said, not even Antony and Cleopatra genuinely fell for each other, Antony needed to undermine Octavian and establish himself saldly in the East, Cleopatra needed a guarantee of Roman protection for her rule. Had Dolabella managed to defeat Cassius, she probably would have seduced him too. When things fell apart after Actium, Cleopatra wasted no time in favoring Octavian’s arrival and Antony’s suicide, she was just as ready to jump on the next Roman warlord. Octavian however was way too wise for that. The snake who bit her ultimately came into her chambers with his knowledge and consent.

That is one interpretation, and it is a very likely one - maybe even the most likely. But I don’t find it incontrovertible.
 
Octavian would have never become Cleopatra’s lover under any circumstances, he was way more careful than Antony about his personal image in front of his fellow Romans. Had he been the one to go East, Cleopatra would have probably been his ally, but Octavian would have never blatantly favored her over the other dynasts, he would have also kept Arsinoe alive for insurance against any rebellious attempt on Cleopatra’s part.
In the east,rulers having sex with each other seems to be a diplomatic gesture.
 
Rulers in the East had sex and married each other, it wasn’t a simple “diplomatic gesture”.
Caesar most certainly did not marry the King of Bithynia.

I think it most certainly would have been possible for Octavian to keep Cleopatra as a mistress,just like Caesar did,but nothing more. To abandon your Roman wife for a foreign woman would have been no good for the Romans.
 
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Caesar most certainly did not marry the King of Bithynia.

I think it most certainly would have been possible for Octavian to keep Cleopatra as a mistress,just like Caesar did,but nothing more. To abandon your Roman wife for a foreign woman would have been no good for the Romans.

Caesar wasn’t a ruler in the East, he was a young tribune at the time, and it could all have been just slander against him, he always bristled whenever people mocked him about his time with Nicomedes.

I don’t think it was really Octavian’s style, or else he would have kept Dynamis of Bosporus as his mistress, she was even about his age.
 

Kaze

Banned
Of course there is the other problem with Octavian x Cleopatra - what are you going to do with Octavian's wife Livia?
 
Don't see why Octavian would want the East, all the power he needs is in Italy where he is viewed as the son of the divine Julius Caesar and can better manipulate the Senate for his own ends while Antony is off campaigning at the end of the world.
 
Don't see why Octavian would want the East, all the power he needs is in Italy where he is viewed as the son of the divine Julius Caesar and can better manipulate the Senate for his own ends while Antony is off campaigning at the end of the world.

That’s not how it worked. Italy was a common possession of all triumvirs, both Antony and Lepidus could have lawfully gone there to raise troops and administer the law whenever they wanted. Indeed, in the partition after Philippi, Antony was the most powerful member of the triumvirate, so he not only took the East, and all its client kingdoms, but also Gaul and Africa, “promising” to give Africa to Lepidus once he had settled things in his portion, while Octavian was forced to content himself with Spain and the islands, the latter of which were occupied by Sextus Pompeius, who was also cutting Rome’s grain supply, and while Antony was given the job to raise taxes on submitted people, Octavian had the very ungrateful task of disbanding veterans in a moment where tensions were extremely high on Italian soil. If Octavian hadn’t been the political genius he was, and hadn’t been quite lucky, the Perusian war would have crushed him right away. If he could have chosen to go East, while sending Antony West, he would have done so, and after settling things there, he would have campaigned in Thrace and Moesia while going to Italy from time to time to support his own cause. It would have been way easier for him to gain absolute power from the East.
 
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