Md139115
Banned
Heck, I'll raise your POD with this one:
What if St. Thomas (or whoever the missionary in antiquity was) was more successful setting up the Christian Church in India? Then, the Portuguese, Dutch, and British would arrive to a nation of Muslims vs. Christians, just as was foretold in the Pester John letter.
What if St. Thomas (or whoever the missionary in antiquity was) was more successful setting up the Christian Church in India? Then, the Portuguese, Dutch, and British would arrive to a nation of Muslims vs. Christians, just as was foretold in the Pester John letter.
Regarding the OP - it probably would have pissed off both Brahmin and Imams throughout India. However, it could have had significant success. It has the potential to replace Two State theory with Three State theory - perhaps leading to a situation where a Christian India (Say Deccan for ease) remains part of the Empire, as a Dominion, whilst (Hindu) India and Pakistan are created.
Potentially all three may stay as Dominions, especially if the groups are estranged enough, but I find this more plausible.
Regarding St. Thomas, frankly I think that you'd have significant conflict between them and the Mughals - as well as with Muslim traders in general - especially if they felt kindred between themselves and other churches. Heck, you might get a token element of support during the Crusades, if a message can reach them, as a significantly Christian India is stronger than Ethiopia, and can probably afford to send a small force to control Eilat.
Potentially all three may stay as Dominions, especially if the groups are estranged enough, but I find this more plausible.
Regarding St. Thomas, frankly I think that you'd have significant conflict between them and the Mughals - as well as with Muslim traders in general - especially if they felt kindred between themselves and other churches. Heck, you might get a token element of support during the Crusades, if a message can reach them, as a significantly Christian India is stronger than Ethiopia, and can probably afford to send a small force to control Eilat.
Unfortunately the St. Thomas Christians eventually got set in their ways and, like Muslim conquerors, changed certain laws and rules to be more similar to local ones. Not that that is necessarily bad, but they took up some of the more negative aspects. In Kerala I believe that some Christians didn't actually try to prostelize and saw themselves as being relatively high caste because of the group they were descended from. Of course that can partially be put down to the hierarchy, as certain groups in Kerala kept the bishop positoins to themselves, much like how in Europe noble families reserved Prince-Bishoprics for themselves. I don't see Christians getting the South of India through conquest, and converting everyone would be impractical, if we consider everyone actually consenting to it. The Portuguese did apparently help save Christians from massacres by oncoming Muslims. I don't know the details, but some others from the church I go to mentioned their ancestors being protecting by Europeans when there was a headprice on Christians.
Anyways, today Christianity is the only religion in India that is majority female (though I assume some of the other groups might just not record all the women) and has the highest percentages in Assam and South India, in area with strong matriarchal histories. For Assam this has all happened relatively recently, in the last century or so. I think Megaphalya has the highest percentage of Southern Baptists in the world. And thinking to the English in India, didn't they not convert too much? Think there were some rules against missoinsries. What we need are people coming there and spreading the Gospel instead of going for gold and spices. When a reasonabl sized local population of Christians comes about (perhaps some of the Mughals and others give dispensations for Christians) they will be able to speak local languages and understand local cultures far better.
Anyways, today Christianity is the only religion in India that is majority female (though I assume some of the other groups might just not record all the women) and has the highest percentages in Assam and South India, in area with strong matriarchal histories. For Assam this has all happened relatively recently, in the last century or so. I think Megaphalya has the highest percentage of Southern Baptists in the world. And thinking to the English in India, didn't they not convert too much? Think there were some rules against missoinsries. What we need are people coming there and spreading the Gospel instead of going for gold and spices. When a reasonabl sized local population of Christians comes about (perhaps some of the Mughals and others give dispensations for Christians) they will be able to speak local languages and understand local cultures far better.
It’s impossible. You could get some Christian kingdoms in India (I’ve always liked the idea of the Indian Bourbons being raised as rulers of Bhopal by the BEIC), but they would be ruling over Hindu majorities. If the missionaries tried too hard, they would literally be murdered by a mob.
Hell, one of the many reasons the Indian Mutiny happened because missionary activities had been steadily increasing since Parliament forced the BEIC to accept missionaries openly proselytizing in 1813.
Nope, that’s impossible. First of all, we are unsure if St. Thomas converting Kerala was a myth, and second of all, even if by some miracle St. Thomas was able to convert all India to Christianity without being executed or his “barbarian” religion being laughed off, court Brahmins would most likely use the lack of much East-West contact to interpret Christianity in a Hindu framework, creating a religion totally unlike what we would recognize as Christianity.
Hell, one of the many reasons the Indian Mutiny happened because missionary activities had been steadily increasing since Parliament forced the BEIC to accept missionaries openly proselytizing in 1813.
Nope, that’s impossible. First of all, we are unsure if St. Thomas converting Kerala was a myth, and second of all, even if by some miracle St. Thomas was able to convert all India to Christianity without being executed or his “barbarian” religion being laughed off, court Brahmins would most likely use the lack of much East-West contact to interpret Christianity in a Hindu framework, creating a religion totally unlike what we would recognize as Christianity.
Skallagrim
Banned
I agree with you completely. That doesn't mean I do not desperately wish to see a TL based on that last idea.
How about where Christianity comes to be seen as a religoin of Dalits and women? Though not sure how bad it was for widows two thousand years ago, as some claim the widow burning was partially due to English law making it impossible for women to own property, so dowries went to the husbands family instead. I am somewhat doubtful on it, as my own research for a short paper didn't show suggestions of it.I agree with you completely. That doesn't mean I do not desperately wish to see a TL based on that last idea.
But yah, having the poor, the unloved, the abandoned, the sick... I think that if enough preachers get over there then we can get something good. The Brahmins might not like having people stop going to their temples, but the other rulers might not mind so long as the peasants are peaceful and to their semi-slave labor and pay taxes. Buddhist had some popularity in parts of northern India, and I expect that people might compare Jesus to the Buddha, though there would be issues in that Buddhism accepted the existence of other deities and believed in reincarnation. Oral tradition will probably move things around a bit, but if we get some Nestorian in the north, and some Copts, Ethiopians, and Jacobites scattered around India's coast with some texts, then it could work out. Where was I? Ahh yes, reincarnation. The upper castes might think it is a way people are trying to escape from reincarnation.
Sati was banned by Aurangzeb in the seventeenth century, and his ban was upheld by many Mughal successor states, even Rajput states such as Jammu.
As for Dalits, there have always been other alternatives. Bhakti was one, as was Buddhism, and more importantly, neither of them are mleccha (barbarian) religions. Considering the fact that Islam required bloody conquest and sacks of temples, followed by refugees fleeing the Mongol conquests of Persia and Central Asia making India their home, and even then it only makes up about 30% of the subcontinent’s population, I’m really unsure how Christianity is supposed to spread.
By merchants and missionaries. Though if the first missionaries are squashed will be difficult for anyone to hear about it, especially when Islam grabs Egypt, Arabia, and Anatolia.
I've always thought that the best way to get a Christian India is through a Christianized Oghur Turk conquest. As in, have Christianity win out over Islam among the turks of Central Asia, followed by a Mughal-style conquest of the Indo-gangheatic plain. Of course, this would have a lot more implications than just a more Christian India, such as a potential Nestorian invasion of Persia that can end in many different ways, and requires at least temporary control of Afghanistan, but it is more likely than any of the other possibilities. As to how christian it can become? Well I guess they could be as successful as the Mughals plus the christians already there and you could get a christian majority in Northern India if they are given more time or are colonized by a christian power. Of course the butterflies will be immense, so there's nothing but speculation we can do there. I also realize that's much further behind of POD than asked in the OP, but if we are talking about St. Thomas, then we were already there.
Isaac Beach
Banned
Yano, a monotheistic India and polytheistic Europe would be a hell of an interesting TL, though you'd need a POD in Roman times at the very latest.
That's mostly correct, with Thomassian christians being socially equivalent to high castes and being recognised as such. They could have been integrated with the Portuguese Estado da India, but the portuguese clergy was rather strong headed about any change of any hint of "idolatry". For example, they forced the Indians converts/thomassians to eat beef to prove they were not hindus. However, that was socially innacceptable for them. The Portuguese also imprisonned some of the Patriarchs and forcefully imposed their own candidates.
If the Portuguese had been more in the mindset of XVIIth century Jesuits, prioritising the philosophy and the gospel against the external signs of conversion, they could have had way more success by using this very integrated group of christians to use as an example to convert other high castes as well as to learn about the local geopolitical landscape.
The Catholics could have easily accepted the Chinese Rites, but to overlook caste system and untouchability might be a harder pill to swallow IMHO. OTOH a bigger Portuguese India with its Inquisition could easily gather a great number of converts.
On the long term sure, overlooking would be tough, but on the short term, you can accept it as a social thing rather than a religious thing and go with the flow for a few years rather than being that pig headed
Chicken and egg, a better integratuion of the Thomassian christians might have led to a bigger India too