WI: Chinese Christianity Survives?

POD: 840s. Emperor Wuzong of the Tang stays away from the mercury and, while no less devoted to Taoism & Confucianism, is less... thorough... in his efforts to clear out things he regarded un-Chinese heresies. Monasteries Buddhist, Christian, and Zoroastrian alike are still crushed due to drawing people away from their families and economic activity; but no efforts are made to prevent lay preaching while foreign ex-monks/nuns who were willing to do some manner of temporal/secular work and marry were permitted to remain.

In short, there develops a Christian (and Zoroastrian/Parsee) Hui analog in China. Largely assimilated culturally and almost indistinguishable by blood, following a generally 'low church' version of Nestorian Christianity, and in intermittent contact with the Middle Eastern Episcopacy.

Presuming many dead butterflies, how to the Jesuit and Franciscan missions that follow the establishment of a sea route from Latin Europe to the Far East react?
 
Perhaps an even better situation for chinese nestorianism would be a scenario where there’s no An Lushan Rebellion and turkic influence and trade continues to flourish uninterrupted.
 
Perhaps an even better situation for chinese nestorianism would be a scenario where there’s no An Lushan Rebellion and turkic influence and trade continues to flourish uninterrupted.
That's also a thought, although one that creates far more large-scale shifts....
 
This might also strengthen Manichaeism in China as well.

Perhaps an even better situation for chinese nestorianism would be a scenario where there’s no An Lushan Rebellion and turkic influence and trade continues to flourish uninterrupted.

But if An Lushan won, wouldn't his new Yan Dynasty also continue those Turkic/Central Asian influences?
 
Presuming many dead butterflies, how to the Jesuit and Franciscan missions that follow the establishment of a sea route from Latin Europe to the Far East react?
Badly. There was a sizeable community of Thomassian Christians in India when the Portuguese arrived. They were perfectly assimilated in the Indian caste system (as high caste) , but this seemed abhorrent and heretical to the missionaries of the Estado da India.
The local existing clergy was brow beaten into submission to the Pope.

Of course with China it would be the jesuits who've always be more accommodating of local adaptations. But then, once the jesuits start telling people about it, you'd get the other orders screaming about getting those heretics into the fold, like what happened with the Chinese rites controversy
 
Of course with China it would be the jesuits who've always be more accommodating of local adaptations. But then, once the jesuits start telling people about it, you'd get the other orders screaming about getting those heretics into the fold, like what happened with the Chinese rites controversy
This... may have odd effects if something akin to the Boxer revolt went down.

Instead of murder out of hand, foreign missionaries and converts would be seized and compelled to perform catechism in the local manner to the satisfaction of the mob on pain of death. Not a great improvement in the eyes of outraged Imperial Powers, it must be admitted.
 
Might get to be a bit like the aftermath of Crusades. In that the local Christians are not given as much problems as the invading Europeans were, as the locals had also suffered under them. Though unlikely there would be any actual Crusading here. Too far away. I imagine that we can expect four to eight main Christian groups, which will have spread around and settled into different areas based upon language. May end up like the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala, where they claim they are descended from a high caste, and don't actually try to proselytize. Though it may have just been the religious leadership who believed that, though it was about on par with how Catholics kept the highest offices for their second sons. Always a problem when states interfere with churches. I expect in China that so long as they don't take sides against the losing sides of a fight they will be treated like many others.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
like Kaifeng Jews, they would dwindled through centuries, become too small for Europeans (or Chinese) concern.
 
Badly. There was a sizeable community of Thomassian Christians in India when the Portuguese arrived. They were perfectly assimilated in the Indian caste system (as high caste) , but this seemed abhorrent and heretical to the missionaries of the Estado da India.
The local existing clergy was brow beaten into submission to the Pope.

Of course with China it would be the jesuits who've always be more accommodating of local adaptations. But then, once the jesuits start telling people about it, you'd get the other orders screaming about getting those heretics into the fold, like what happened with the Chinese rites controversy
That assumes a religiously driven European power is able to intervene militarily in China effectively.Prior to the industrial age,European powers are a nuisance rather than a threat.

Also,that also assumes the Christians in China bothered with the Catholic Church.Nestorians would be seen as heretics by the Catholic Church anyway.
 
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like Kaifeng Jews, they would dwindled through centuries, become too small for Europeans (or Chinese) concern.
There is a major difference, though. Jews did not tend to ever proselytize.

That assumes the Christians in China bothered with the Catholic Church.Nestorians would be seen as heretics by the Catholic Church anyway.
Quite right. I a thousand years seperate form them would just add to the gulf. The Catholics would try to put a good spin on it though. Like how some claimed, I think, that the Nestorian Stele was proof of an early Catholic presence. Though most people just called themselves Christian, so maybe that was it, and people later nitpicked that ti was a different group. If only the Pope had some missionaries to send to the Mongols when he asked for them... Well, the Khans probably just wanted them as court officials. Probably would be bad for long term Christianity, if it was scene as coming on the back of invaders. Christianity seems to do much better when it is missionaries who come along and when locals start doing the proselytizing themselves. Do wonder if they would have enough written texts to go around, or if Christianity would be a mainly orally saved tradition.

Badly. There was a sizeable community of Thomassian Christians in India when the Portuguese arrived. They were perfectly assimilated in the Indian caste system (as high caste) , but this seemed abhorrent and heretical to the missionaries of the Estado da India.
Not all of them, I don't think. Probably enough of them, though. I actually think at one point the Portuguese or the INquisition thrw out some local women who joined a convent. Not Hindus, but daughters of centuries old Christian families.
 
That assumes a religiously driven European power is able to intervene militarily in China effectively.Prior to the industrial age,European powers are a nuisance rather than a threat.
Come to think of it, Christians in China might make it easier in Japan and Korea. Get enough of a tradition going that they are giving fealty and respect to the sovereign appointed by the heavens, and the various rulers might be content. Kind of like how the Jews got around sacrifices to the Roman Emperor, by sarificing a bull at the Temple on the Emperor's behalf.
 
Come to think of it, Christians in China might make it easier in Japan and Korea. Get enough of a tradition going that they are giving fealty and respect to the sovereign appointed by the heavens, and the various rulers might be content. Kind of like how the Jews got around sacrifices to the Roman Emperor, by sarificing a bull at the Temple on the Emperor's behalf.
As long as they don't preach against other religions,attack the legitimacy of the emperor or hoard land to build churches,monasteries and convents they should be fine.In China,you don't worship the emperor and neither do you have to follow his religion.People including the emperor himself never truly believed in the emperor become a literal son of heaven anyway.Religious persecutions generally only occur if a particular religion hoards a lot of land,gets a lot of followers who does nothing productive except for praying all day and does not pay taxes.
 
Come to think of it, Christians in China might make it easier in Japan and Korea. Get enough of a tradition going that they are giving fealty and respect to the sovereign appointed by the heavens, and the various rulers might be content. Kind of like how the Jews got around sacrifices to the Roman Emperor, by sarificing a bull at the Temple on the Emperor's behalf.

Maybe you'd get the community of Nestorians in Japan would survive? The reason they died out probably had a lot to do with the decline of the religion in China.
 
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