WI China was not unified?

[Scholastique]

Okay, I had some thoughts about the idea of a not unified China. I wonder, what do you think will happen of it isn't and remains the same feudal system, except evolving over them. And a few states just entirely forgetting it or not using the system(the Qin didn't) .

I think that if it didn't get a unification, it will have a map like Europe. Which the Zhou dynasty could prove given how it split and eventually found seven states which were the strongest, the same when it came to Europe in the 19th century.

Another aspect is that the hundred schools of thoughts will still be around, although which country will end up following what is debatable. And the same for whether Confucianism will ever gain the popularity that it did or become widespread with China being a less centralized, the same can be said for Buddhusm as well. Since they were never centralized in the first place, I doubt when civil war breaks out people will throw themselves into another faith given how it is a lot smaller here .

And whether the kings of Zhou dynasty will end up being something akin to early constitutional monarchs, since their power eroded by the Eastern Zhou.

But I'm just giving this idea a shot, and it probably won't be a timeline, but likely a story on its own. Thoughts?

 

[Miguel Lanius]

How will China keep divided? Europe kept divided because it was a continent of mountains, islands, peninsulas and inland seas.

The Middle East is generally unified around one or two empires, with a few smaller powers around it. See Assyria, then Persia, then Rome/Parthia, then ERE/Sassanids, then ERE/Caliphates and Mamluks, then the Ottomans. Its also mostly desert, plains and some hills, with Egypt and the Fertile Crescent being all about rivers.

China AFAIK is a huge plain full of rivers, and the North is richer than the South.

 

[darthfanta]

How will China keep divided? Europe kept divided because it was a continent of mountains, islands, peninsulas and inland seas.

The Middle East is generally unified around one or two empires, with a few smaller powers around it. See Assyria, then Persia, then Rome/Parthia, then ERE/Sassanids, then ERE/Caliphates and Mamluks, then the Ottomans. Its also mostly desert, plains and some hills, with Egypt and the Fertile Crescent being all about rivers.

China AFAIK is a huge plain full of rivers, and the North is richer than the South.

A division like this could work.

 

[SeaCambrian]

A division like this could work.

Are we assuming an ancient POD, long before the Northern and Southern Dynasties period, and that the borders converge but with vastly different peoples inhabiting each empire?

Perhaps with faster evolution of agricultural techniques, allowing for higher populations in the north, we could also add a "Balhae" empire, controlling all of Korea, southern Manchuria, "Vladivostok", Liaodong, and the old Yan state/northern Hebei. Larger than historical Balhae and controlling the rest of Korea, it would be politically tied to the non-unified kingdoms in China. This predominantly sedentary state, inhabited by farming Tungusic peoples such as the Mohe, "proto-Jurchens", and a Chinese-Korean synthesis culture, could provide a constant threat to "Northern Qi" or whatever state is based on the lower Yellow River.

Occasionally, "Balhae" would be overwhelmed by nomadic peoples from the west and north, but having a higher population than that region did through most of premodern history, this would happen less frequently. "Balhae" could also specialize in nomadic-like tactics due to its proximity to the steppe, despite having a sedentary agricultural-pastoral economy.

When nomadic peoples do eventually conquer "Balhae", the new nomadic empire would threaten both "Northern Zhou" and "Northern Qi". The empire of "Chen", being based in mountainous southern China, would be unlikely to extend full hegemony over both without having its borders threatened by the northern nomadic empire. "Chen" would extend to Southern Song borders but probably not much further.

 

[darthfanta]

Are we assuming an ancient POD, long before the Northern and Southern Dynasties period, and that the borders converge but with vastly different peoples inhabiting each empire?

Perhaps with faster evolution of agricultural techniques, allowing for higher populations in the north, we could also add a "Balhae" empire, controlling all of Korea, southern Manchuria, "Vladivostok", Liaodong, and the old Yan state/northern Hebei. Larger than historical Balhae and controlling the rest of Korea, it would be politically tied to the non-unified kingdoms in China. This predominantly sedentary state, inhabited by farming Tungusic peoples such as the Mohe, "proto-Jurchens", and a Chinese-Korean synthesis culture, could provide a constant threat to "Northern Qi" or whatever state is based on the lower Yellow River.

Occasionally, "Balhae" would be overwhelmed by nomadic peoples from the west and north, but having a higher population than that region did through most of premodern history, this would happen less frequently. "Balhae" could also specialize in nomadic-like tactics due to its proximity to the steppe, despite having a sedentary agricultural-pastoral economy.

When nomadic peoples do eventually conquer "Balhae", the new nomadic empire would threaten both "Northern Zhou" and "Northern Qi". The empire of "Chen", being based in mountainous southern China, would be unlikely to extend full hegemony over both without having its borders threatened by the northern nomadic empire. "Chen" would extend to Southern Song borders but probably not much further.

Could be that way,but could work even in the Warring States period. If one state managed to unite eastern China against the Qin,then the balance of power can be maintained.

 

[Fabius Maximus]

How will China keep divided? Europe kept divided because it was a continent of mountains, islands, peninsulas and inland seas.

Northern Europe is basically a "huge plain full of rivers" from the Atlantic to the Urals, and hasn't unified, so I don't think geography is an insuperable barrier to Chinese division.

 

[Diego]

How will China keep divided? Europe kept divided because it was a continent of mountains, islands, peninsulas and inland seas.

The Middle East is generally unified around one or two empires, with a few smaller powers around it. See Assyria, then Persia, then Rome/Parthia, then ERE/Sassanids, then ERE/Caliphates and Mamluks, then the Ottomans. Its also mostly desert, plains and some hills, with Egypt and the Fertile Crescent being all about rivers.

China AFAIK is a huge plain full of rivers, and the North is richer than the South.

Northern Europe is basically a "huge plain full of rivers" from the Atlantic to the Urals, and hasn't unified, so I don't think geography is an insuperable barrier to Chinese division.

I would say that what defines borders are cultural, political and geographical reasons. Sometimes geography is overcome by the other two factors, take a look at Iberia, the natural borders inside the peninsula are all east to west but the Christian kingdoms evolved in a north-south pattern, it would make more geographical sense to see Granada survive than Portugal. Italy is another example, as it was divided between many states since the early middle ages until the 19th century mostly because of political reasons, the same could be said to be the reason that Europe never unified in the early middle ages, if the Franks didn't keep dividing their realm there would not be Germany and France today, probably they could even have reconquered the lands of the Western Roman Empire.

It only makes sense that the Mediterranean should be united again under one big empire still it never was reunited after the fall of Rome, but with another set of Frankish rules of succession or maybe without the rise of Islam that could have happened sometime. What I mean is that if the political and cultural stars align in the right way in China it will not be unified. I just think that any POD that targets the perpetual division of China needs to be before the Tang and the best time to avoid China would be in the Spring and Autumn period.