WI China never unifies?

I've seen some speculation here on the boards that if the Roman Empire had survived or reformed after the Fall that we could end up with a China-like situation in Europe; sometimes dissolving, but always coming back together, with relatively homogeneous culture and language.

However, I've never seen it looked at the other way around: WI China had never had a stable Imperial system, and instead remained permanently divided into many competing kingdoms and states, like Europe or India? There might be some attempts at uniting all the Chinas, but, like the Romans, Guptas, or Mauryans, they would never work out in the long run. My guess at the best POD is to have a much longer Warring States period--in fact, to never have that period collapse, but just keep going on and on and on. Qin Shi Huangdi never gets it together to conquer everyone, and no Empire is ever founded.
 
Geographically speaking China is very well suited to a unitary state, at least in it's heartland. The trouble is that around the two big, fertile river valleys you're going to most likely get some kind of unified polity. This then becomes the 400-pound gorilla in China because the other regions aren't fertile, rich and heavily populated enough to resist it.
 
This was inevitably brought up in this thread about different outcomes to the Warring States period of China. Reasons included.

And I saw some overestimation of pre-Qin cultural differences and the personal ability of Qin Shih Huang too. He was definitely not the Chosen One to unify China, it was more about the geopolitical situation that permitted him to sweep all aside. Many had the potential besides him.
 
Geographically speaking China is very well suited to a unitary state, at least in it's heartland. The trouble is that around the two big, fertile river valleys you're going to most likely get some kind of unified polity. This then becomes the 400-pound gorilla in China because the other regions aren't fertile, rich and heavily populated enough to resist it.

Would it be possible to get two states, one focused on each river valley, or am I really terrible at Chinese geography?
 
Perhaps, but they would be very similar culturally. It's more likely though that in this case, Chinese unification would occur later than OTL.

If the pre-Qin states and tribes were considerably more different, then it could lead to a HRE-ish arrangement.
 

Typo

Banned
Would it be possible to get two states, one focused on each river valley, or am I really terrible at Chinese geography?


There was at the beginning, they just merged together. And there were frequently periods where there -were- two states, one south of the Yangtze and one north, but they always got pulled back together again. But a fragmanted China isn't impossible, it just have very very low odds of occuring.</br>

That being said, if China stays fragmanted, then it might very well butterfly away confucianism as the basis for Chinese government and society, you get something that's completely unrecognizable from OTL China. Nothing is really out of the question at this point. China will probably be more advanced, you might have a Chinese industrial revolution in the early 1000s, or you might have a China whose states are too weak to fend off the Barbarian incursions and the north is pernmantly de-sinized. If that's the case, then whatever southern Chinese states might decide to colonize southeastern Asia</br>

Or maybe both, that's what almost happened OTL with the Southern Song</br>
 
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Would it be possible to get two states, one focused on each river valley, or am I really terrible at Chinese geography?

I once read that Sichuan was colonized by northern Chinese, although there are recent discoveries of a pre-Chinese culture in Sichuan. If this culture develops faster, you could get a third power in China, essentially what was around during the three kingdoms.

Furthermore, there could be another power based in Northern Vietnam expanding into southern China, namely Guangxi and Guangdong.

I alays had the impression that Chinese expansion into the South met very little resistance. Thus, China started with the vast majority of its population centered around Hwang-Ho, only gradually did the South - especially the regions south of the Jangtse - become more important. I think it would be possible to establish one China in the lower Jangtse valley and one in the north, with additional countries in Sichuan, Northern Vietnam and Guangdong, which could be powerful enough to withstand Chinese expansion. Lateron, a Taiwanese country could be added. Nevertheless, this would require a major POD during or even before the Zhou dynastie I presume.
 
I once read that Sichuan was colonized by northern Chinese, although there are recent discoveries of a pre-Chinese culture in Sichuan. If this culture develops faster, you could get a third power in China, essentially what was around during the three kingdoms.

Furthermore, there could be another power based in Northern Vietnam expanding into southern China, namely Guangxi and Guangdong.

I alays had the impression that Chinese expansion into the South met very little resistance. Thus, China started with the vast majority of its population centered around Hwang-Ho, only gradually did the South - especially the regions south of the Jangtse - become more important. I think it would be possible to establish one China in the lower Jangtse valley and one in the north, with additional countries in Sichuan, Northern Vietnam and Guangdong, which could be powerful enough to withstand Chinese expansion. Lateron, a Taiwanese country could be added. Nevertheless, this would require a major POD during or even before the Zhou dynastie I presume.

I believe that you are referring to the Sanxingdui Culture. They are quite mysterious indeed, with little historical record left until the excavation of their artifacts in the 80's. These people possessed the art of bronze processing, and their culture may have merged with the southern states' later on in the Spring and Autumn period. Still, I doubt if they had a large enough population base for a meaningful resistance to the cultural assimilation.

Chinese advance to the south wasn't easy either. If not for Qin Shi Huang's army marching south, few would have the intention to move there, having to deal with the vast amount of aggressive natives and hostile terrains(for those northerners). But he did and laid the path. Still the southern natives were rebellious enough to trouble the central dynasties for thousands of years.
 
I'm thinking about creating a "tentative" timeline on this very topic, so message me if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions.
 
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