WI: Charles VII doesn't become ill in 1458

Alright, first post here after lurking for a little while and following an old muse back down the rabbit-hole again. So do forgive me if someone has thought about this before and I just couldn't find mention of such. May need a bit of a PC too.

What If... King Charles VII of France doesn't become sick from that sore on his leg, not healing properly and getting infected causing a rather serious fever in 1458 AD?

Is it possible that the infection in his jaw wouldn't happen in July 1461 as well?

What if instead that particular sore on his leg doesn't happen until 1464 and the infection in his jaw leading to the tumor in his mouth happens in July 1467?

Would this sort of PoD lead to Louis, Dauphin of France staying in Burgundy even longer than IOTL? Say the additional six years... and would such time lead to a reconciliation or make possible in roads at least between the wary Charles, Count of Charolais and the Dauphin?

Possible butterflies due to Charles VII not becoming ill: Isabella, Countess of Charolais becomes pregnant with a second daughter in 1458 ... and a few more before her eventual OTL death on September 25, 1465.

Duke Philip III 'the Good' of Burgundy has a few more granddaughters with which to negotiate some more allies before his OTL death of June 15, 1467.

Duke Charles 'the Bold' rides with Louis the Dauphin to Reims after the King's death on July 22, 1467. King Louis XI honours his time of refuge in Burgundy by ratifying the title 'Grand Duke of the West' which Duke Philip used by elevating the Duchy of Burgundy into the Grand Duchy of Burgundy following his coronation in August.
 
To give a bit of insight as to where my muse has been heading. This will be in essence a pro House of Valois - Burgundy and House of York timeline with an effort to have a less powerful House of Habsburg and a short Tudor reign.

Here a look at what I was thinking for the grandchildren of Duke Philip III:

The daughters of Charles, Count of Charolais and Isabella, Countess of Charolais... their birth dates are tentative and could probably use a plausibility check.

Marie of Burgundy (the Pearl) {the Rich OTL} b 2/13/1457 - marriage to Maximilian I, Heir to the HRE { I was thinking sometime in the early 1480s, so she would be the last daughter wed }

Catherine of Burgundy b 4/7/1459 - marriage to Charles IV, Duke of Anjou { Before OTL marriage to Joan of Lorraine occurs ... likely 1470 }

Agnes of Burgundy b 1/27/1461 - marriage to Rene II, Duke of Lorraine { Before OTL first marriage to Jeanne d'Harcourt occurs ... likely 1468 }

Margaret of Burgundy? b 6/10/1463 - marriage to Louis II, Duke of Orleans (Louis XII) {I thought this would be an attempt to bury the hatchet between Burgundy & Orleans ... likely 1471}

Isabella of Burgundy? b 8/21/1464 - marriage to Philibert I, Duke of Savoy {Before OTL marriage to Bianca Marie Sforza ... likely in 1472 or 1473}

Bonne of Burgundy? b 8/21/1464 - marriage to Charles, Count of Angouleme {Before OTL marriage to Louise of Savoy ... in 1476 - 1479

I have an idea that following their marriage Duke Charles and Duchess Margaret would have two or three daughters and would go on to have three sons in the 1480s.
 
One of the Daughters of Charles the Bold will most likely be used to prevent a marriage between Isabella and Ferdinand, Catherine seems to be the perfect candidate.
 
Prevent the marriage between Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon? Hmm...

I was thinking about letting that one happen as IOTL but have Joanna of Castile marry someone that isn't Philip of Austria.

I actually have a Yorkist Plantagenet of possible Burgundy influence in mind for Joanna.
 
Would this sort of PoD lead to Louis, Dauphin of France staying in Burgundy even longer than IOTL?
He would certainly stay longer outside his father's influence, and while a reconciliation seems particularily likely (would it be only to go with was what expected), I would see it failing eventually as well : father and son were both quite firm when it came to their interests and own political perception.

Now, you could as well see a point in time where this reconciliation would not take place in Burgundy : the financial support that Philippe the Good gave to Louis was really important. Maybe too important for Burgundy at this point, and it might either represent a growing burden on their treasury, or the duke might simply lower it significantly in which case, you might see Louis having a shakier position and himself hesitating between moving between his father's rivals or powerful vassals, or reconciliating with his father (as stated above, I think it would happen anyway, but such situation might makes it less formal).

would such time lead to a reconciliation or make possible in roads at least between the wary Charles, Count of Charolais and the Dauphin?
In fact, longer Louis stays in Burgundy as pointed above, more he becomes a drain : would a young Charles, with his fiery personality, be that tolerating of this in spite of the obvious political gains? I'm not sure.

and a few more before her eventual OTL death on September 25, 1465.
I'm not really sure how it could be obtained from the PoD, giving she was apparently of frail wealth and didn't really well supported the local climate, tough.

Duke Philip III 'the Good' of Burgundy has a few more granddaughters with which to negotiate some more allies before his OTL death of June 15, 1467.
Matrimonial unions were less tools of an alliance, strictly speaking, than how to seal them : if he couldn't find more allies in the first place, he would stll probably found to marry more grandaughters, but likely IMO to lesser nobility than he searched in order to strengthen alliance by biding them to his house.

King Louis XI honours his time of refuge in Burgundy by ratifying the title 'Grand Duke of the West' which Duke Philip used by elevating the Duchy of Burgundy into the Grand Duchy of Burgundy following his coronation in August.
That seems unlikely : first, the grand-ducal title doesn't exist within the Kingdom of France, and is essentially tied to the imperial suzerainty. It's not just a detail, as it could be felt as Frederic as taking on his legitimacy.
Of course, Charles did historically assumed this title, but he was overly ambitious and let's say not very subtle about it. Such effects aren't last in explaining why his allies weren't that enthusiastic supporting him.

Then, I wouldn't see Louis XI, giving his political perception and general psychology, indulging Burgundians' ambitions when it clearly went against his interests as soon he would became king. Historically, he mostly thanks them by leaving Burgundy to its own shenanigans (having witnessed first hands the strength but also the weakness of the dukes) and securing his own authority which led to the Ligue du Bien Public.

Giving that ITTL, we might have forced Louis to reconcily a bit more deeply with his father, or having searched other allies than Burgundy, it might makes relation with Burgundy not that different from IOTL, or possible tensed more quickly (especially with a Ligue happening during the latter part of Charles VII's reign ITTL)
 
He would certainly stay longer outside his father's influence, and while a reconciliation seems particularily likely (would it be only to go with was what expected), I would see it failing eventually as well : father and son were both quite firm when it came to their interests and own political perception.

Now, you could as well see a point in time where this reconciliation would not take place in Burgundy : the financial support that Philippe the Good gave to Louis was really important. Maybe too important for Burgundy at this point, and it might either represent a growing burden on their treasury, or the duke might simply lower it significantly in which case, you might see Louis having a shakier position and himself hesitating between moving between his father's rivals or powerful vassals, or reconciliating with his father (as stated above, I think it would happen anyway, but such situation might makes it less formal).


In fact, longer Louis stays in Burgundy as pointed above, more he becomes a drain : would a young Charles, with his fiery personality, be that tolerating of this in spite of the obvious political gains? I'm not sure.


I'm not really sure how it could be obtained from the PoD, giving she was apparently of frail wealth and didn't really well supported the local climate, tough.


Matrimonial unions were less tools of an alliance, strictly speaking, than how to seal them : if he couldn't find more allies in the first place, he would stll probably found to marry more grandaughters, but likely IMO to lesser nobility than he searched in order to strengthen alliance by biding them to his house.


That seems unlikely : first, the grand-ducal title doesn't exist within the Kingdom of France, and is essentially tied to the imperial suzerainty. It's not just a detail, as it could be felt as Frederic as taking on his legitimacy.
Of course, Charles did historically assumed this title, but he was overly ambitious and let's say not very subtle about it. Such effects aren't last in explaining why his allies weren't that enthusiastic supporting him.

Then, I wouldn't see Louis XI, giving his political perception and general psychology, indulging Burgundians' ambitions when it clearly went against his interests as soon he would became king. Historically, he mostly thanks them by leaving Burgundy to its own shenanigans (having witnessed first hands the strength but also the weakness of the dukes) and securing his own authority which led to the Ligue du Bien Public.

Giving that ITTL, we might have forced Louis to reconcily a bit more deeply with his father, or having searched other allies than Burgundy, it might makes relation with Burgundy not that different from IOTL, or possible tensed more quickly (especially with a Ligue happening during the latter part of Charles VII's reign ITTL)

So, you're saying that with the King not battling an illness there's a possibility of reconciliation between father and son. I'm not quite sure a true reconciliation would happen, it would likely be Louis kowtowing for a couple of years in token reconciliation.

Where would the Dauphin go besides Burgundy? Provence doesn't quite make sense with 'Good King' Rene up in the Duchy of Anjou.

Well, despite Charles' waryiness and temperment, it is said that he had good or decent relations with Louis before he became King of France. So, further toleration of the Dauphin with a longer refuge for the potential political gains might possibly work if Duke Philip and/or Duchess Isabella plainly told Charles what should be obvious.

Erm.. I don't really want to be guilty of handwaving as it were, so to make that work it would likely be a second PoD which may work. Actually this was the initial PoD that my muse saw as to possibly continuing the House of Valois - Burgundy. Then, my muse wondered at what could happen if Louis XI came to the throne a few years later... meaning possibly less animosity between Louis and Charles.

Hmmm. I suppose alliance was the wrong word for what I was thinking about... more of a Burgundy influence by way of matrimonial union that could lead to a later alliance (which could lead to one of Charles the Bold's later enemies being an ally instead).

Honestly, I'm still on the fence about elevating the Duchy of Burgundy to either a Grand Duchy or a Principality. My thoughts to the possibility of a Grand Duchy in France are that: with the large area that the Duchy of Burgundy had I went searching for a title that would fit the lands, also Duke Philip the Good wanted to be The Predominant Duke of France. What better way for Louis XI to honour Duke Philip then by taking the Grand Duke from the stylized title and create the first Grand Duchy in western Europe a full century earlier than the Grand Duchy of Tuscany.

I assume with the mention of Frederic, you mean Emperor Frederick III? Is the grand-ducal title only something that the Holy Roman Emperor could grant during that time period? I believe the Grand Duchy of Lithuania may have been part of the HRE at some point in time but what about the Grand Duchy of Moscow? Or was the the grand-ducal title something only granted by the Pope?

Hmm... but what about showing gratitude or trying to appease Charles so that Louis could focus on everything else and leave Burgundy to sink or swim by its own shenanigans?
 
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So, you're saying that with the King not battling an illness there's a possibility of reconciliation between father and son. I'm not quite sure a true reconciliation would happen, it would likely be Louis kowtowing for a couple of years in token reconciliation.
Entierly my point, sorry if it wasn't clear.

Where would the Dauphin go besides Burgundy? Provence doesn't quite make sense with 'Good King' Rene up in the Duchy of Anjou.
I'm not sure why it couldn't, even if it's not really an obvious choice : Valois-Anjou were in a roughly similar geopolitical situation than Valois-Bourgogne, and Louis could arguably think that he might be acknowledged as he was in Burgundy.
I don't think it would be that a good choice, as René kept away from most nobiliar coalitions against Charles VII, tough.

I could see, as secondary havens for Louis either Brittany (altough Charles VII's would certainly renew interest on the region ITTL as a consequence), or Bourbon (which might be a better choice after Burgundy giving the opposition of Charles I but Jean II being a favourite of the king this might create opportunity for a forced reconciliation.

it is said that he had good or decent relations with Louis before he became King of France.
The issue there is that Charles VII wanted to impose its political hegemony as far as possible within the kingdom, which deprived Louis of real power as dauphin or gouverneur. The opposition seems to be less about a tension between them, than political.

Hmmm. I suppose alliance was the wrong word for what I was thinking about... more of a Burgundy influence by way of matrimonial union that could lead to a later alliance (which could lead to one of Charles the Bold's later enemies being an ally instead).
Honestly? I could really see Charles the Bold really blowing it up, due to his big ambitions. IOTL he more or less antagonized everyone in sight, even powerful allies as Frederic that were ready to support him. If you manage to piss off the HREmperor, you manage to piss off everyone except if he had much more assets ITTL to make up for it.
Now what would be interesting would be in the window of opportunity between Louis IX ascendency and Jean sans Peur's death, allowing Charles a better initial reign.

Honestly, I'm still on the fence about elevating the Duchy of Burgundy to either a Grand Duchy or a Principality
.Assuming Louis XI choose to award Valois-Bourgogne (which I think unlikely for the aformentioned reasons), he doesn't really have the possibility to up the title, but could transfer to them the denomination of "Duke by the Grace of God", which was used by Armagnacs for instance, and were sorta way to proclaim that their title wasn't lgitimized trough royal or imperial authority, but directly from God.
It would be arguably less giving them this, than accepting it.

I assume with the mention of Frederic, you mean Emperor Frederick III? Is the grand-ducal title only something that the Holy Roman Emperor could grant during that time period?
Essentially, yes. You have counter-exemples but they are all situated in Eastern Europe in what we could the larger "Imperial geo-political horizon" when they appeared.

I believe the Grand Duchy of Lithuania may have been part of the HRE
It's one of the counter-exemples, arguably, but the Great-Duchy marks there rather the need to rehauss the prestige of the Duchy of Lithuania in the XIVth century after the Union of Lublin to not make appear Lithuania as the junior partner, IIRC.

but what about the Grand Duchy of Moscow?
It's mostly a matter of translation, there. Knyaz can be arguably translated as count, duke, prince or even king depending on the situation.
It happened it was translated as Grand Duke, but Grand Prince would work just as well.

Or was the the grand-ducal title something only granted by the Pope?
I must admit I don't remember an occurence where Popes gave the grand ducal title directly, but it's more from ignorence of such happenance than being sure.

Hmm... but what about showing gratitude or trying to appease Charles so that Louis could focus on everything else and leave Burgundy to sink or swim by its own shenanigans?
Several principalties in France could create an opposition to royal authority (Armagnacs, Bourbons, etc.) but only two were a real threat to it thanks to treasuries and organisation well enough managed to pull armies, fortress and allies out of it. Namely Brittany and especially Burgundy.
You'd need Burgundy to litterally split in two or three territories to really have kings of France going softer on it, and at this point it's not hugely plausible.
Or Burgundy deciding that this whole business of forging a large scale principalty was a mistake, and going down as just one of the most powerful feudataires within the kingdom. Which is somehow even less likely IMO.

Altough that with an earlier dead of Jean with two strong sons...Well, that requires another PoD anyway.
 
I believe the Grand Duchy of Lithuania may have been part of the HRE at some point in time but what about the Grand Duchy of Moscow?
Neither Lithuania nor Moscow were ever part of the HRE, and you are making a historical mistake in calling either one of them "grand duchies".

The title "Grand Duchy of Lithuania" is a direct translation of the Lithuanian term "didžioji kunigaikštystė" (although "Great Duchy" would be s more accurate translation), which, unlike other grand duchies like Luxemburg, was a king-level title. Lithuanian grand dukes were referred to as "pagan kings" by Westerners like the Pope and the Teutonic Order.

Moscow was never a Grand Duchy, it, like all other Russian principalities, was a Principality, later elevated to Grand Principality - a title unique to East Slavs as far as I know, and it follows different rules (it is also a king-level title)
 
Neither Lithuania nor Moscow were ever part of the HRE, and you are making a historical mistake in calling either one of them "grand duchies".
The point was more why they were translated by Great Duchies, instead of Great Principalties or Great Rulership, tough : while not in the HRE (except for an earlier period), Poland was part of what we could call the cultural/political horizon of HRE, which influed the perception and conceptualisation of non-imperial concepts.
On this regard, it's less Countess' mistake, than perpetuation of an historical perception (which I agree with you, had to be precised)

Lithuanian grand dukes were referred to as "pagan kings" by Westerners like the Pope and the Teutonic Order.
The title of Grand Duke was unconsistently given to pagan Lithuanian rulers, tough, before the Union with Poland : you had various uses such as kings, dukes or lord (in a broad sense). Its systematical use is relatively recent.

a title unique to East Slavs as far as I know, and it follows different rules (it is also a king-level title)
It's rare, but it can be found along Danube with Serbs, early Hungary, and was given to Finland by Sweden; not Russia. Also the "Grand Duchy of Portucale" in late Xth being the best exemple of this style west of HRE (and probably one of the few).
That said, I agree that its actual meaning could evolve from "Great king" (especially for Knyaz) to "Great duke" where duke have still its meaning of "tribal ruler" to actually Grand Duke in HRE sphere.

Furthermore, and more to the point, Burgundians dukes did styled themselves Great Dukes of the West IOTL.
@Countess Whitewing's point was not to create the style out of blue, but to have it being acknowleged and officially given by Louis XI ITTL.
 
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