WI: Charles V doen't divide the Habsburg Empire?

So we all know managing all the empire was impossible.....but how about: what if he is more pig headed and tries anyway? Could lead to some ahem, interesting outcomes.....
 
So we all know managing all the empire was impossible.....but how about: what if he is more pig headed and tries anyway? Could lead to some ahem, interesting outcomes.....

Charles only stopped trying to manage everything towards the end of his life.

The Spanish lands being given to Philip in 1556, and as Emperor, Ferdinand was his vassal.
 
So if he dies earlier...?

How much earlier?

Ferdinand has at least a good chunk of the Austrian part of the inheritance (exactly how that was handled escapes me at the moment) from pretty early on, Philip is born in 1527.

But neither is guaranteed the emperorship.

Honestly, dividing the Habsburg Empire was a good thing, and I say this as that weirdo waving a Team Habsburg flag in Now Blooms a Tudor Rose.

From the perspective of the Habsburg empire (lower case intentional) as an entity distinct from their Imperial (caps intentional) aims, they did very well in the East (Austria) and Spain's problems would not grow less with someone trying to manage everything.
 
Charles and Ferdinand had a small argument about the division of their inheritance. Traditionally the Habsburgs had divided their inheritance between all male heirs in their Austrian Lands, in contrast in the Burgundian and Spanish lands traditionally the eldest son inherited (or at least got the major part of the share).

Naturally Ferdinand preferred this to be extended to all Habsburg Lands; and Charles argued that only the Austrian Lands would need to be divided. In fact Charles was to inherit Tirol & Further Austria. Originally in the treaty made at the Imperial Diet of 1521 at Worms, Ferdinand only received Austria, Styria, Carinthia, Carniola & the Windic March. However in 1522 with the treaty of Brussels Ferdinand also received Tirol, Further Austria & the duchy of Württemberg. The first two, due to obligations from the 'Austrian Lands' and objections that separating wasn't good to efficiently rule the region.
The latter, Württemberg, was in 1519 sold to the Habsburgs by the Swabian League after the Swabian League had defeated the previous duke, who was due to his actions placed under the imperial ban, and had taken over the duchy. (Initially he controlled that duchy without being made duke.) However Ferdinand also had to take over half of the (large) debt left behind by Maximilian I.
Another reason, to eventually give Ferdinand all the Austrian Lands, was to make him a more interesting spouse for Anna of Bohemia & Hungary, since that would make him a better potential ally (for Bohemia and especially Hungary), regardless whether he would inherit those kingdoms or not. Furthermore it enabled him to be his brother's representative in the Empire, if Charles was absent, which wasn't uncommon. Later that position of representative would be formalized by the election of Ferdinand as king of the Romans. (In fact after the inheritance was divided, the brothers for decades had a good relationship and knew they could depend on each other, since they both served their 'House'.)
 
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So about the only difference him (Charles) dying early would mean an earlier inheritance for Philip.

Depending on when, but he'd have to die pretty early for it to matter.
 
Now that I think of it - and I'm too lazy to open a new topic - why was the Burgundian inheritance allotted to Philip and not to Ferdinand?

Those realms (and to a slightly lesser extent, Milan) seem to make more sense being managed by Austria than by Spain...
 
Now that I think of it - and I'm too lazy to open a new topic - why was the Burgundian inheritance allotted to Philip and not to Ferdinand?

Those realms (and to a slightly lesser extent, Milan) seem to make more sense being managed by Austria than by Spain...

Because those realms were usually inherited to the eldest son (Philip was the eldest son of the eldest son of Philip of Burgundy, Maximilian was the second son of Philip) and the Burgundian inheritance was the bulk of Charles' kingdoms, the first to be under his rule, the country in which he was born and grown-up and likely his favorite realm...
 
Because those realms were usually inherited to the eldest son (Philip was the eldest son of the eldest son of Philip of Burgundy, Maximilian was the second son of Philip)

But... but... The Austrian Lands should also be inherited by the eldest son.
I get that Austria had a Salic law and the Burgundian lands practise was male-preference primogeniture but regardless of the differences of succession laws the "normal" inheritor of all of Charles V's realms would be Philip.

and the Burgundian inheritance was the bulk of Charles' kingdoms, the first to be under his rule, the country in which he was born and grown-up and likely his favorite realm...
Ok, thanks.
 
But... but... The Austrian Lands should also be inherited by the eldest son.
I get that Austria had a Salic law and the Burgundian lands practise was male-preference primogeniture but regardless of the differences of succession laws the "normal" inheritor of all of Charles V's realms would be Philip.


Ok, thanks.

Yep yep. Well techically speaking Philip was never the heir to the Austrian lands. Ferdinand got those in 1521/22, before Philip was born.
 
Yes, if Charles would have got a home country 'Burgundy' (in the broader sense, so not just the Low Countries) would have been. However he saw some potential issues from ruling those lands from Spain. There were two alternatives considered. Either the Burgundian Lands or Milan would together with 4 appanage duchies pass to a French prince, who was to marry a Habsburg archduchess (either Charles' daughter Mary or Ferdinand's daughter Anna); still given the desired French contribution that probably never had a much chance to succeed.

A more realistic alternative was giving the Burgundian Lands to Mary, who then was married to Maximilian II, the eldest son and main heir of Ferdinand. That seems a likely compromise for such a transfer to have happened.

Even earlier Ferdinand had desired Milan for his own branch, not only did he have a healthy large family; but Milan could in hostile hand potentially threat the Austrian Lands, so naturally it was also interesting for the Austrian branch.
Then again it could also serve Spanish interests in Italy. Anyway disputes over Milan and Charles granting it to his son, was the beginning of worsening relations between Ferdinand an Charles.
This only got worse, when a bit unrealistically Charles had the desire for his son Philip to succeed him in the Empire, after Ferdinand, whereas Ferdinand preferred his own son Maximilian II. I intended the use unrealistic, because Ferdinand and his family knew the Empire and the Empire, like Spain and 'Burgundy', didn't like the situation with a ruler, who was more absent than present. Not to mention, the fact that the Prince-Electors, also preferred the 'native' Austrian branch over the foreigner Philip II. A bit ironic, since Ferdinand I, also started out as Spanish archduke, but, also due to his Lands, was able to firmly establish himself in the Empire. Philip II OTOH had too much obligations in 'Spain', which just made it not credible for him too have enough time for the Empire.
 
But... but... The Austrian Lands should also be inherited by the eldest son.
I get that Austria had a Salic law and the Burgundian lands practise was male-preference primogeniture but regardless of the differences of succession laws the "normal" inheritor of all of Charles V's realms would be Philip.


Ok, thanks.

Not really, in the Austrian Lands or let me rephrase that the Habsburg Hereditary Lands, so Austria (proper, or the archduchy), Styria, Carinthia, Tirol, Further Austria, Carniola & the Windic March, there was a practice of joint-rule or a division of the dynastic lands. The only unusual bit is Charles tranferring Austria (proper) to Ferdinand, which would slightly violated the (even then) somewhat disputed Privilegium Maius; still Ferdinand could inherit the other mentioned lands. However separating Austria from the rest of those lands wouldn't make much sense from a governance PoV, since all these lands were connected. Then there also are the dynastic considerations I mentioned, the position of the Habsburgs in the HRE; and Habsburg marriage & dynastic politics, regarding Hungary & Bohemia, which were connected with the defence against the Ottoman Empire.

Finally as Emperor Constantine mentioned; even so they kept the right to use various titles (including archduke).
 
Because those realms were usually inherited to the eldest son (Philip was the eldest son of the eldest son of Philip of Burgundy, Maximilian was the second son of Philip) and the Burgundian inheritance was the bulk of Charles' kingdoms, the first to be under his rule, the country in which he was born and grown-up and likely his favorite realm...

Archduke and later HRE Maximilian was the son of HRE Frederick III and he married Mary the Rich, the daughter of duke Charles the Bold of Burgundy. The Burgundian Lands were ruled by Mary with Maximilian as co-ruler, but after her early death he was regent for their son Philip the Fair (AKA the Handsome).

@miguelrj: maybe in order to get a different division of the Lands controlled by the Habsburgs, it might help, if Philip the Fair survives longer. HRE Maximilian I, Ferdinand II of Aragon and Philip, probably will need to negotiate about the succession. They might, especially given the position of Ferdinand II in this matter end up deciding to keep the division Castille-Aragon and Austria-Burgundy, including the Habsburg candidacy for HRE, and give these to a different heir.
Edit: Like IOTL I think that the eldest Charles will inherit Castille-Aragon with Ferdinand being made the heir of Austria-Burgundy. This will also have implications on the place of their upbringing ITTL Ferdinand might move to the Netherlands and from Austria sooner and Charles will move to Spain sooner. Both might end up with at least three tutors involved with their upbringing, a 'Spaniard', a 'Burgundian' and an Austrian.
 
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