WI: Charles the Bold did not fight the Swiss?

Zioneer

Banned
I've got an idea for a TL where Charles the Bold decides not to bother with Alsace and thus, the Austrians and Swiss, instead focusing on his French and Dutch territories, as well as meddling in the north-east of the Holy Roman Empire.

How would this come about, and what would be the immediate effects, besides Charles not dying to a Swiss halberd?
 
Dude, Burgundian-led kleindeutsche Lösung FTW!

No, not really. But a stable Burgundian dynasty will have efects on France and Germany that will reverberate for quite a while. Likely, Burgundy will dominate the Rhineland, maybe even swallow it up. If the state survives into the 17th c, French expansion is liable to focus more on Italy and the Pyrenees. Also, no sense of Habsburg encirclement might head off the very aggressive foreign policy of Louis XIV (or not - the guy was a bully anyway). For that matter, the fact that Burgundy would end up having the spiritual electors under its thumb might shift power inside the HRE. A Reformation in Burgundy could have extra special repercussions in that light, though if Burgundy does *not* go Reformed, there is a better than even chance the Dutch territories will revolt.

Best-case scenario in terms of coolness: A Reformed, militarily powerfgul and economically booming Burgundy centered around the Rhineland and Netherlands, majority 'Dutch'-speaking (there used to be a fairly constant dialect cline into Westphalia), and, with control of the votes of the electors spiritual, claiming the imperial crown.

With colonies in the Americas. And trade posts in Africa and India. And controlling the East Indies trade. Foer Christum en de Loeew! Hurrah Borgund!
 
Carlton, I agree with most of your ideas - even though we are now stretching over several centuries in one blow.

But I would challenge two of your items:

Why should the Netherlands revolt anyway? IOTL, it was not only for religious reasons, but for the extremely violent way of oppression against Protestantism, combined with the consciousness that the ruler was a foreigner far away. Three quarters of this motivation would be swept away.

Moreover, why would Burgundy have colonies? The won their ante in the colonial game when they were sailing as part of Spain ....
 
Carlton, I agree with most of your ideas - even though we are now stretching over several centuries in one blow.

But I would challenge two of your items:

Why should the Netherlands revolt anyway? IOTL, it was not only for religious reasons, but for the extremely violent way of oppression against Protestantism, combined with the consciousness that the ruler was a foreigner far away. Three quarters of this motivation would be swept away.

Moreover, why would Burgundy have colonies? The won their ante in the colonial game when they were sailing as part of Spain ....

Bodo, I'm not being *serious* here.

Anyways, the thing is, I don't think there was any chance of reasonable accommodation of a majority-Protestant territory in a Catholic monarchy in the sixteenth century, so it's likely that there stillwould be repression.

Though if Burgundy imports the HRE's settlement, that could add up to even more coolness. I just like Burgundywank.
 
If the state survives into the 17th c, French expansion is liable to focus more on Italy and the Pyrenees. Also, no sense of Habsburg encirclement might head off the very aggressive foreign policy of Louis XIV (or not - the guy was a bully anyway).

Hmm. I'm not sure I see encirclement as his main concern. He was very, very aggressive. Did breaking Habsburg encirclement reuqire trying to conquer Holland, for instance?

Best-case scenario in terms of coolness: A Reformed, militarily powerfgul and economically booming Burgundy centered around the Rhineland and Netherlands, majority 'Dutch'-speaking (there used to be a fairly constant dialect cline into Westphalia), and, with control of the votes of the electors spiritual, claiming the imperial crown.

You rang?

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Okay, more seriously... I think i'ts worth asking what happens to Austria, in this scenario. Without the resources from Flanders, is it going to be capable of even holding Vienna against the Ottomans?
 

Zioneer

Banned
Hmmm... I like your idea for a Rhienlander/Dutch majority Burgundy, Carlton. But of course, before this Burgundy can become so, Charles the Bold needs to force the French Kings to allow his independence. How can he do that?
 
Hmmm... I like your idea for a Rhienlander/Dutch majority Burgundy, Carlton. But of course, before this Burgundy can become so, Charles the Bold needs to force the French Kings to allow his independence. How can he do that?

I'm not sure he needs to, at least immediately. He can be a prince of the HRE and a duke of France and effectively ignore the demands of the French crown if his main power base lies outside the kingdom. What is the king going to do, take away his territories?

Now, in the medium term it's certainly possible for him to buy his exit, but surely there can be a legal accommodation akin to 'king in Prussia'.
 
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