WI Charles II, Duke of Orleans lived?

What if Charles II, Duke of Orleans never caught the plague in 1545 and died? Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor through the Treaty of Crepy forced Francis I to give him the Duchies of Angouleme, Chatellerault, Bourbon, and Orleans and for him to marry either Maria of Spain or her cousin Anna of Austria with the Low Countries or Franche Comte as Maria's dowry and Milan as Anna's dowry. Which one do you think he would choose and how would this affect Europe as whole?
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Hoo boy, this one is tough...

Had Charles II de Valois-Angouleme, the Duc d'Orleans not contracted the plague, then this would definitely weaken France, since these territories would've made him equal to his father Francis I (and his brother Henry II, who would succeed him in 1547) in terms of political power. It was assumed that this was the intent of Charles V, to divide and weaken France, and thus forever prevent further conflicts over there sovereign right to the Italian states.

Either way, I'd probably see it as a France-screw, even if they regain Franche-Comte or gain the Low Countries, though it largely depends on if the French Protestants would play a role in this. I'd find it interesting if he ended up marrying Maria, over Anna. While he would have the riches of the Low Countries, I wonder how the Dutch Protestants would react under French rather than Ultracatholic Spanish rule.

On the flip side, if Charles sires a few generations of heirs, they might have a shot at getting the French throne anyway, but butterflies are a fickle thing.
 
Hoo boy, this one is tough...

Had Charles II de Valois-Angouleme, the Duc d'Orleans not contracted the plague, then this would definitely weaken France, since these territories would've made him equal to his father Francis I (and his brother Henry II, who would succeed him in 1547) in terms of political power. It was assumed that this was the intent of Charles V, to divide and weaken France, and thus forever prevent further conflicts over there sovereign right to the Italian states.

Either way, I'd probably see it as a France-screw, even if they regain Franche-Comte or gain the Low Countries, though it largely depends on if the French Protestants would play a role in this.

On the flip side, if Charles sires a few generations of heirs, they might have a shot at getting the French throne anyway, but butterflies are a fickle thing.

What do you think would happen if Charles were to die after his marriage? Who would gain the Charles' territory?
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
What do you think would happen if Charles were to die after his marriage? Who would gain the Charles' territory?

Good question, depends on if Charles gets an heir...Assuming he doesn't, I would not put it past Henry to return the territories to the Royal Domain and pass it to his children...As for the territories gained from the dowry, I would not put it past him to keep it...and if they do end up with Milan...(which would be a funny case of a plan backfiring on Charles V's part), expect to see yet another Italian War, or a war over the Low Countries.
 
Good question, depends on if Charles gets an heir...Assuming he doesn't, I would not put it past Henry to return the territories to the Royal Domain and pass it to his children...As for the territories gained from the dowry, I would not put it past him to keep it...and if they do end up with Milan...(which would be a funny case of a plan backfiring on Charles V's part), expect to see yet another Italian War, or a war over the Low Countries.

Furthermore it would have been the Low Countries & Franche Comté or the duchy of Milan.

I also assume, that both the Habsburgs and France will determine beforehand what should happen to the territories, if this marriage would remain childless; most likely a restoration of the situation before the marriage. Also the imperial territories in contrast to the French appanages could be inherited by women (or through the female line by their sons (so a grandson of the previous ruler) in the absence of a (direct) male heir.
Anyway IMHO this seems to be a recipe for conflicts in the future.

Furthermore it also meant that Charles V would renounce his claim on the actual (territory of the) duchy of Burgundy (proper), though not the title, and Francis would renounce his claim on the kingdom of Naples and his gains in Italy.
 
The history of France up to that date has been constant division of its territories, then their recombination. Louis XI was most successful in achieving the most recent form of the latter, but a reversion to a break up won't doom France in any way, it would just continue the old pattern somewhat longer than OTL.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

Razgriz 2K9

Banned
Furthermore it would have been the Low Countries & Franche Comté or the duchy of Milan.

I also assume, that both the Habsburgs and France will determine beforehand what should happen to the territories, if this marriage would remain childless; most likely a restoration of the situation before the marriage. Also the imperial territories in contrast to the French appanages could be inherited by women (or through the female line by their sons (so a grandson of the previous ruler) in the absence of a (direct) male heir.
Anyway IMHO this seems to be a recipe for conflicts in the future.

Furthermore it also meant that Charles V would renounce his claim on the actual (territory of the) duchy of Burgundy (proper), though not the title, and Francis would renounce his claim on the kingdom of Naples and his gains in Italy.

But wasn't some of the French appanages already have an Agnatic-Cognatic succession law?

Though to counter that statement, that's only if Charles II marries Maria of Spain, and not Anna of Austria, of which in the latter case, Charles V would renounce his claim on the territory of the Duchy of Milan proper.
 
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But wasn't some of the French appanages already have an Agnatic-Cognatic succession law?

Though to counter that statement, that's only if Charles II marries Maria of Spain, and not Anna of Austria, of which in the latter case, Charles V would renounce his claim on the territory of the Duchy of Milan proper.

Some fiefs, yes, appanges, no. Appanges were lands granted by the King, parts of the royal domain to his other sons. These were passable only through the male line and came back to the crown only when there were no sons left in that line. Of course, some princes of these appanges, at least in medieval times could increase their holdings by marrying the heiresses of such fiefs. Hence the reason why Louis XVI was deridingly referred to as "Louis Capet" although he came from the House of Bourbon, it was merely a branch of the Capetians, much like the Valois (who came in the direct branch, the short lived branch of Louis XII of Valois-Orléans, and Francis I's line of Valois-Angoulême), all traced back to the Capetians.
 
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