WI Charles Gonzaga Duke of Mantua sets a "Greek state" in 17th century?

The Maniots after the death of Pope Clement VIII and the failed attempts of Philip III of Spain found at last a champion in 1612, Charles Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and Nevers. Charles was a descendant of the Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus through his grandmother, who was of the line of Theodore I of Montferrat, Andronicus' son.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots#cite_note-Kassis30-29 Through this connection he claimed the throne of Constantinople. He began plotting with the Maniots, who addressed him as "King Constantine Palaeologus". When the Porte heard about this, they sent Arslan in command of an army of 20,000 men and 70 ships to invade Mani. He succeeded in ravaging Mani and imposing taxes on the Maniots (which they did not pay). This caused Charles to move more actively for his crusade. Gonzaga sent envoys to the courts of Europe looking for support. In 1619, he recruited six ships and a number of men, but he was forced to abort the mission because of the beginning of the Thirty's year War.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots#cite_note-Greenhalgh_and_Eliopoulos26-28http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maniots#cite_note-Kassis30-29 The idea of the crusade faded and Nevers died in 1637.
WI the Duke of Mantua was successfull in setting an independent Greek state and placed himself as "Imperator Constantinopolitanus" (he had the legal claim to that...) Any thoughts?
 

Nikephoros

Banned
The Maniots after the death of Pope Clement VIII and the failed attempts of Philip III of Spain found at last a champion in 1612, Charles Gonzaga, Duke of Mantua and Nevers. Charles was a descendant of the Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II Palaeologus through his grandmother, who was of the line of Theodore I of Montferrat, Andronicus' son. Through this connection he claimed the throne of Constantinople. He began plotting with the Maniots, who addressed him as "King Constantine Palaeologus". When the Porte heard about this, they sent Arslan in command of an army of 20,000 men and 70 ships to invade Mani. He succeeded in ravaging Mani and imposing taxes on the Maniots (which they did not pay). This caused Charles to move more actively for his crusade. Gonzaga sent envoys to the courts of Europe looking for support.

Seems pretty interesting.

In 1619, he recruited six ships and a number of men, but he was forced to abort the mission because of the beginning of the Thirty's year War. The idea of the crusade faded and Nevers died in 1637.
WI the Duke of Mantua was successfull in setting an independent Greek state and placed himself as "Imperator Constantinopolitanus"

Yes. His little experiment ends with his death at the hands of a small Ottoman garrison. But even that is unlikely. It is probable that his fleet is found by an Ottoman naval patrol and sunk.

(he had the legal claim to that...) Any thoughts?

Descent from an Emperor that died in the 1300s (It is also a rather dubious descent, he could have easily made such a claim) does not constitute a legal claim. EDIT: Not to mention, that Andronicus had a legal heir who came to the throne. Theodore had no rights to the throne to pass down, because his brother already became Emperor. By this time, the Ottomans have long since been the recognized heirs to Rome.
 
Seems pretty interesting.



Yes. His little experiment ends with his death at the hands of a small Ottoman garrison. But even that is unlikely. It is probable that his fleet is found by an Ottoman naval patrol and sunk.



Descent from an Emperor that died in the 1300s (It is also a rather dubious descent, he could have easily made such a claim) does not constitute a legal claim. EDIT: Not to mention, that Andronicus had a legal heir who came to the throne. Theodore had no rights to the throne to pass down, because his brother already became Emperor. By this time, the Ottomans have long since been the recognized heirs to Rome.

Had Clement VIII lived slightly longer he would have given his blessing to a crusade... Maybe Charles has slightly bigger chances of success if he has a Papal Banner and help from Pope...
 

Nikephoros

Banned
Had Clement VIII lived slightly longer he would have given his blessing to a crusade... Maybe Charles has slightly bigger chances of success if he has a Papal Banner and help from Pope...

I still doubt it. This is the 1600s. By this time, the Protestant Reformation had pretty much run its course. Many Protestant States (The French also) were at least friendly with the Ottomans. This is also, as you mentioned, the time of the 30 years war. The Catholic powers have their hands VERY full, and are not likely to support any Crusade.

Which, should I mention, hasn't occured since the 1300s.
 
Is there any way the Spanish, which I think are the only credible power around there, could consider it in their interest to help out? I am pretty sure the Venetians won't (nor would they do much good in the long run) and the French woulde even help the Ottomans. With Spasnish money and troops, this could become at least a credible effort.
 
Is there any way the Spanish, which I think are the only credible power around there, could consider it in their interest to help out? I am pretty sure the Venetians won't (nor would they do much good in the long run) and the French woulde even help the Ottomans. With Spasnish money and troops, this could become at least a credible effort.

Philip III made some failed efforts and then gave up... Perhaps if he tried harder he could have made something...
 
Philip III made some failed efforts and then gave up... Perhaps if he tried harder he could have made something...
Well the Emperor-in-Exile (brother of the last emperor) sold his rights to Constantinople to the Spanish Crown right? So the legal claim would be there.
 
This is a flight of fancy. He would get nowhere. I really, really think you should move on to the later period if you want these kinds of scenarios. In the 17th c the Ottomans were still able to successfully face the combined armies of the Hapsburgs, Poles, and whomever else decided to gang-pile. A silly claim by the Duke of Mantua is not going to garner even a sliver of support within the Ottoman Empire, and six ships full of men, or even 60, are not going to make a dent in an empire of 40 million people that stretched from Algeria to Persia and Hungary to the Sudan.

I'm surprised that the posters in this thread are even willing to entertain that this would have the slightest chance of success.

"What if Murat I had sent his son Mustafa to claim the Kingdom of France, to which he had legal claim through marriage?"

People would laugh at this.

If hundreds of years later modern armies were failing to take Istanbul against a weak empire, under what possible conditions do you think a private Crusade is going to have any success when the empire is near the height of its power?
 
If hundreds of years later modern armies were failing to take Istanbul against a weak empire, under what possible conditions do you think a private Crusade is going to have any success when the empire is near the height of its power?
There is a difference between attempting to attack and occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire and attacking lands further away from the Porte. Granted, Greece wasn't outright ignored by the government, but surely Peloponnesia wasn't the Sultan's highest priority?

A successful attack is unlikely, I agree, but now I'm just curious as to priorities within the government.
 
There is a difference between attempting to attack and occupy the capital of the Ottoman Empire and attacking lands further away from the Porte. Granted, Greece wasn't outright ignored by the government, but surely Peloponnesia wasn't the Sultan's highest priority?

A successful attack is unlikely, I agree, but now I'm just curious as to priorities within the government.

The Maniots were autonomous, even within Greece for most of the 19th c. They are not going to exchange that for rule by a Catholic "Emperor", even in the Morea. They had most likely intended to use Gonzaga and discard him.

A lot of the Wiki article about the Maniots is pure fantasy, BTW.
 
Then fix it so people don't make a mistake.
The usual response to that in any field that people complain about is that those articles that are woefully incorrect are usually maintained that way by a cabal of nationalists/radicalists/[insert related group here]. Polish articles are a prime example-- many articles about Polish history are fairly biased at best, but attempts to change anything contrary to that bias are often completely undone Polish users who keep an eye on that sort of thing.

It's frustrating, really.
 
The Maniots were autonomous, even within Greece for most of the 19th c. They are not going to exchange that for rule by a Catholic "Emperor", even in the Morea. They had most likely intended to use Gonzaga and discard him.

A lot of the Wiki article about the Maniots is pure fantasy, BTW.

I am a Maniot actually.. allow me to know a little more about Maniot History...
 
Top