WI: Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk Doesn't Marry The French Queen

[Kellan Sullivan]

When Mary Tudor (the elder) went off to marry Louis XII, she extracted a promise from her brother, Henry VIII, that when Louis died, she would be allowed to marry whomever she chose. When Louis did die a few months later, Henry dispatched Charles Brandon, duke of Suffolk to France to fetch back the former queen to England, with the caveat that Brandon would not marry Mary under any circumstances. François I of France was interested in Mary if his wife, Louis XII’s daughter, the sickly Claude, duchess of Brittany, were to die. Likewise, eager to prevent Henry VIII from marrying Mary off elsewhere, François encouraged Brandon towed the dowager queen. And the rest is history.

Now for the POD: the ship carrying Brandon to France sinks or Henry sends someone else to France to fetch Mary home (Norfolk or Buckingham as the only other dukes in England would be of sufficient rank? Buckingham seems unlikely (but that could be simply in retrospect given Buckingham’s later execution for treason)). Either way, Mary and Brandon miss the window to be wed (sure, they could always do it in England, but chances are that Henry keeps Mary under close watch to avoid something like this.

Mary most likely gets married off to her original betrothed, Charles of Burgundy (or whomever Henry wants an alliance with this week). What happens next? Especially if Henry still proves as incapable of siring a surviving male heir by Katherine of Aragon as OTL.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Obviously if Mary marries Karl, his OTL wife either has to wait a few more years to wed Karl,or find another husband. Of course, if Mary has the same luck with sons with this Charles, then the emperor's remarriage becomes more of a necessity.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Bumping back to front of the queue

 

[kasumigenx]

I think Mary might have more children...although daughters only might mean that they need to marry back to the bohemian branch..

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think Mary might have more children...although daughters only might mean that they need to marry back to the bohemian branch..

If there are daughters (born around the same time as Frances and Elinor Brandon, they might be too old for the Bohemian branch, so where do they marry then? the dauphin and Prince Hans of Denmark and Sigismund II of Poland are the only crown princes available at the time of their birth.

 

[kasumigenx]

If there are daughters (born around the same time as Frances and Elinor Brandon, they might be too old for the Bohemian branch, so where do they marry then? the dauphin and Prince Hans of Denmark and Sigismund II of Poland are the only crown princes available at the time of their birth.

The eldest marries to Portugal and and the Dauphin..

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

The eldest marries to Portugal and and the Dauphin..

If this girl, Elisabeth/Johanna of Austria, would be born in 1517/1518, she obliges the king of Portugal (Joao III) to wait an awful long time for a wife. I know he's got a football team of brothers but having to wait that long seems a bit of a stretch. The dauphin I can buy into - maybe instead of Eleonore marrying François, her niece marries the dauphin.

 

[Thoresby]

We are talking about the Hapsburgs so there is a depressingly good chance any daughters will stay in the family.

 

[kasumigenx]

If this girl, Elisabeth/Johanna of Austria, would be born in 1517/1518, she obliges the king of Portugal (Joao III) to wait an awful long time for a wife. I know he's got a football team of brothers but having to wait that long seems a bit of a stretch. The dauphin I can buy into - maybe instead of Eleonore marrying François, her niece marries the dauphin.

I think not just the Portuguese King, one of the daughters can marry into Beja or other infantes not the Portuguese King himself..

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think not just the Portuguese King, one of the daughters can marry into Beja or other infantes not the Portuguese King himself..

I'm guessing that this is with Karl V's youngest sister still marrying Joao III? What would be stood to gain by a third Portuguese-Habsburg match (after Eleonore and Katharina to their respective husbands)? Might it not be considered a waste to betroth an emperor's daughter off to a younger son who has little to no shot (as it would look in the 1530s) of inheriting a throne (especially if there are at least two crown princes - France and Denmark, Poland's to follow later, floating around)? And where might Isabel be fobbed off to in this situation? If she has to wait until 1533 to marry Karl she's spinster age already? Logical choice is probably the duke of Savoy, but then her younger sister has no husband...

 

[kasumigenx]

I'm guessing that this is with Karl V's youngest sister still marrying Joao III? What would be stood to gain by a third Portuguese-Habsburg match (after Eleonore and Katharina to their respective husbands)? Might it not be considered a waste to betroth an emperor's daughter off to a younger son who has little to no shot (as it would look in the 1530s) of inheriting a throne (especially if there are at least two crown princes - France and Denmark, Poland's to follow later, floating around)? And where might Isabel be fobbed off to in this situation? If she has to wait until 1533 to marry Karl she's spinster age already? Logical choice is probably the duke of Savoy, but then her younger sister has no husband...

I think Isabel could be a replacement for Catherine of Aragon..especially if her three daughters survive..

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I think Isabel could be a replacement for Catherine of Aragon..especially if her three daughters survive..

IDK how likely Karl is to sign off on replacing Catherine of Aragon. Mary was OTL also of the anti-divorce party, whether that was because she actually liked Catherine (which I've read somewhere) or because she hated Anne Boleyn (The Tudors putting the words in her mouth about Anne Boleyn "not her. Anyone but her. She's a cheap nothing"). Not to mention, Isabel would have to wait until 1536 if Catherine's anywhere near as stubborn as she was OTL, which is a year before she (Isabel) died - so not sure that that's going to be an improvement.

Will Catherine be more likely to step aside for a princess and her niece? @desmirelle can maybe answer, but OTL she stubbornly refused to step aside "God never called me to a nunnery" she said when Wolsey suggested she retire to a convent.

 

[Tyler96]

It's in a different and less interesting direction than the thread has taken, but I guess Brandon ends up married to Elizabeth Grey? To whom he'd been betrothed (and consequently been given the title Viscount Lisle).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

It's in a different and less interesting direction than the thread has taken, but I guess Brandon ends up married to Elizabeth Grey? To whom he'd been betrothed (and consequently been given the title Viscount Lisle).

Probably, and if she still has no kids like she did OTL, he's on the lookout for a new wife. Oh, if only we could get Charles to marry Anne Boleyn, but she's in love with Percy and he's probably shagging anything in a skirt.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

It's in a different and less interesting direction than the thread has taken, but I guess Brandon ends up married to Elizabeth Grey? To whom he'd been betrothed (and consequently been given the title Viscount Lisle).

On a less speculative note, who would Brandon marry if Lady Lisle gives him no kids and dies on schedule? Any suggestions?

And what if Karl V has a son nearly a full decade earlier than Felipe II OTL? Or still better, has two sons (elder one born in 1516, second one born in 1522 - Mary's OTL sons)? Besides Karl splitting Spain and Burgundy between them, does he maybe change the specifications of his agreement with his brother, Ferdinand? That Ferdinand gets left with a smaller portion and Karl's sons inherit the imperial title and/or Spain whilst Ferdinand gets Hungary/Bohemia (maybe) and/or Burgundy?

 

[desmirelle]

Katherine of Aragon step aside for ANYONE? She's in love in Henry and believes GOD HIMSELF made their marriage possible and wants their daughter Mary to rule after Henry. So, I seriously doubt if she'd step aside for anyone - even a relative - to marry Henry. She died signing herself Katherine the Queen (and writing that she loved Henry).

But this is about Mary Tudor, sister of Henry. She is a Tudor, and has her brother's promise that she could marry whom she would. She might push the issue OR join a convent - I wouldn't put it past her to threaten this to get her way. She wanted Brandon.

Brandon was probably less in love than she was. His marital history indicates he did whatever was convenient. And the Lisle girl refused to wed him, if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Katherine of Aragon step aside for ANYONE? She's in love in Henry and believes GOD HIMSELF made their marriage possible and wants their daughter Mary to rule after Henry. So, I seriously doubt if she'd step aside for anyone - even a relative - to marry Henry. She died signing herself Katherine the Queen (and writing that she loved Henry).

But this is about Mary Tudor, sister of Henry. She is a Tudor, and has her brother's promise that she could marry whom she would. She might push the issue OR join a convent - I wouldn't put it past her to threaten this to get her way. She wanted Brandon.

Brandon was probably less in love than she was. His marital history indicates he did whatever was convenient. And the Lisle girl refused to wed him, if I'm remembering correctly.

So no Lisle marriage for Charles, however, in the film where Glynis Johns plays Mary, the London merchants protest at her marriage to the French king, and Henry retorts "is she their sister or mine?"

Plus, ISTR reading in Chapman's biography of Mary that she married Brandon as quickly as she did because she knew Henry would never keep his word. Of course, if Brandon dies on his way to come fetch her, its slightly romantic, but politics doesn't leave room for sentiment.

 

[High Plains Drifter]

Just had an idea, LOL. Any chance that a POD with a living Brandon has him later capture the heart of Henry's other sister, Margaret?

She escaped from Scotland and the regency of the Duke of Albany over her sons in 1516 for England. And her husband Douglas, Earl of Angus, with whom she later got a divorce (1527) - with much political and other shenanigans between them in the intervening years - did not stay with her long in England before returning to his own lands in Scotland.

Margaret did herself return to Scotland in 1518 or 1519. What if she went back with the full support of her brother and a new martial champion, the veteran warrior Charles Brandon???

 

[desmirelle]

Louis' widow married Brandon because she was Mary Tudor, she had been promised him (maybe not in those words) and she wasn't going to give Francis or her brother the chance to give her to someone else.

Brandon was, imo, easy - to use a current term. He married where it was convenient. If he doesn't go to France and end up with Mary, there's no reason for him not to say yes to Margaret. However, don't know if the Scots want him - he is an English Duke and close friend of the English King. Could cause more problems there than it's worth (to Brandon). To marry the Queen Dowager of another country who has a child.....that's an entirely different prospect than marrying the younger sister who's a childless widow and already has a successor married to her husband's heir.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Just had an idea, LOL. Any chance that a POD with a living Brandon has him later capture the heart of Henry's other sister, Margaret?

She escaped from Scotland and the regency of the Duke of Albany over her sons in 1516 for England. And her husband Douglas, Earl of Angus, with whom she later got a divorce (1527) - with much political and other shenanigans between them in the intervening years - did not stay with her long in England before returning to his own lands in Scotland.

Margaret did herself return to Scotland in 1518 or 1519. What if she went back with the full support of her brother and a new martial champion, the veteran warrior Charles Brandon???

Louis' widow married Brandon because she was Mary Tudor, she had been promised him (maybe not in those words) and she wasn't going to give Francis or her brother the chance to give her to someone else.

Brandon was, imo, easy - to use a current term. He married where it was convenient. If he doesn't go to France and end up with Mary, there's no reason for him not to say yes to Margaret. However, don't know if the Scots want him - he is an English Duke and close friend of the English King. Could cause more problems there than it's worth (to Brandon). To marry the Queen Dowager of another country who has a child.....that's an entirely different prospect than marrying the younger sister who's a childless widow and already has a successor married to her husband's heir.

Something similar was spoken of in the back-cover of the book, Three Sisters Three Queens, that Margaret Tudor was actually considered for Louis XII at first, and then for some unknown reason (didn't buy the book, can't say I'm impressed by Dr. Gregory's fictionalizing) Mary ends up married to Louis first. Now, it would be nice if such a thing were actually to happen (don't know how likely it is though).

Which brings us back to the original post - if Brandon's ship were to sink (and he were to drown en route to France), would Henry be okay with Mary staying unwed in London for the rest of her life? England's got an alliance with Spain through Catherine of Aragon, but otherwise it hasn't got any real alliances over the Channel (not that the alliance with Scotland was worth a tinker's cuss anyway, look how James IV died, to give you an idea - hardly the Perpetual Peace of imagining). And Mary's young, nubile and pretty. Henry can either risk her contracting some extremely bad marriages - a la Margaret and himself - or marry her off to the most profit abroad. She can threaten to join a convent, but from what I can gather of Mary's personality, she'd come out of the convent even faster than she went in. But on the plus side, Henry at least gets all of her wedding plate/jewels back from France - not like OTL - so he's got a bit more cash than he did OTL (I guess).