WI: Charlemagne crowned Emperor... by Byzantines

Just had this crazy idea, and I’m sure it would strain credulity, but I’m fascinated by it. Basically, the idea here is that the Byzantine court sees Charlemagne conquering Western Europe left and right, and decides to shore up diplomatic relations. They surmise that he might decide to have himself declared Emperor - or that the Pope might do it - and beat the Franks to the punch. They send the imperial regalia (bonus points if they’ve still got the old gear that Odoacer sent back) and hail him as Western Emperor.

What happens?
 
There's going to be revolts by the Greek population of the east even if the elites accept Charlemagne. The cultural divide is just too far. These revolts are going to be huge... you could even perhaps see Charlemagne restricted to parts of the Eastern Empire, with other parts breaking off into a new one.
 
There's going to be revolts by the Greek population of the east even if the elites accept Charlemagne. The cultural divide is just too far. These revolts are going to be huge... you could even perhaps see Charlemagne restricted to parts of the Eastern Empire, with other parts breaking off into a new one.

Hailing as Western Emperor implies that the old East/West split is remaining intact, so he's not reigning over anything the Byzantines already hold.
 
While Charlemagne might accept I'd think it would actually weaken his position relative to IOTL. The Pope was much closer to the West after all than the Basileus, and thus Constantine would have a much more "present" source for this backing. However, if the Basileus did crown Constantine and he accepted it, 1) there wouldn't be as much of a direct conflict between Pope and Kaiser ITTL since there wouldn't be the lingering question of whether the Kaiser in particular owed homage to the Pope, but 2) the Pope would likely name an alternate Emperor to Constantine or his descendents especially after the Frankish Empire shattered (unless somehow Constantine managed to impose Roman rather than Salic law over his dominions). It wouldn't be immediate, but I'd think it would eventually happen as another state grew in power to match one of Constantine's successor kingdoms...Asturias maybe? Christianized Hungary? Ultimately the split between Catholic and Orthodox would be much less east v west than in our timeline, with Germany and possibly France being Orthodox rather than Catholic. Protestant Reformation is definitely butterflied away.
 
While Charlemagne might accept I'd think it would actually weaken his position relative to IOTL. The Pope was much closer to the West after all than the Basileus, and thus Constantine would have a much more "present" source for this backing. However, if the Basileus did crown Constantine and he accepted it, 1) there wouldn't be as much of a direct conflict between Pope and Kaiser ITTL since there wouldn't be the lingering question of whether the Kaiser in particular owed homage to the Pope, but 2) the Pope would likely name an alternate Emperor to Constantine or his descendents especially after the Frankish Empire shattered (unless somehow Constantine managed to impose Roman rather than Salic law over his dominions). It wouldn't be immediate, but I'd think it would eventually happen as another state grew in power to match one of Constantine's successor kingdoms...Asturias maybe? Christianized Hungary? Ultimately the split between Catholic and Orthodox would be much less east v west than in our timeline, with Germany and possibly France being Orthodox rather than Catholic. Protestant Reformation is definitely butterflied away.

That right therecis my exact logic - the Byzantines do this to have some influence on his legitimacy.
 
I think it'd be a very interesting scenario, the Papal conflict aside.

It introduces other potential conflicts. Whilst the Carolongian WRE and Byzantine ERE are both "allies", the Carolingians still have the Italian problem of the Alps - which the Byzantines may be loath to help them with, without being granted rule over the area instead. This may well strengthen Carolingian rule as their resources aren't as stretched, but also leaves a robust Alpine divide between the two halves of Rome.

Incidentally, this leaves two very interesting situations.

1) Potential war between the two halves of Rome over N.Italy after a revolt is put down by the Byzantines.

2) Potential guide of succession in the Byzantines. Charlemagne could legitimately appoint a single successor, who can have Byzantine backing, helping strengthen their position (again, the price of this might be Italy).

But with the Italian Question resolved, the WRE in the Carolingian Empire is in a position that it can either emulate the Roman system in time, and stay united (keeping Francia as one massive trans-Rhine polity), or continue to fall apart and become a series of Byzantine satellites, if not outright client states.
 
2) Potential guide of succession in the Byzantines. Charlemagne could legitimately appoint a single successor, who can have Byzantine backing, helping strengthen their position (again, the price of this might be Italy).

Even with absolute support for one heir from the Byzantines, I have my doubts that even Charlemagne can completely nullify Salic law in appointing a single successor. It almost certainly means a civil war with the slighted sons teaming up on Charlemagne's heir or possibly the man himself if his intentions become clear, but with clear support from the Pope.
 

Philip

Donor
Fly in the ointment: Charlemagne's empire facilitated the spread and largely legitimized the use of the Filioque in the Latin liturgy.
 
What if he managed to conquer the Byzantine empire, and united both realms? It's crazy, but would be awesome if it worked.
 
What if he managed to conquer the Byzantine empire, and united both realms? It's crazy, but would be awesome if it worked.

Pretty ASB. Constantine wouldn't be able to project power that far from Francia, nor suppress endless revolts by the Greek populace. Besides, he has no navy.
 
Even with absolute support for one heir from the Byzantines, I have my doubts that even Charlemagne can completely nullify Salic law in appointing a single successor. It almost certainly means a civil war with the slighted sons teaming up on Charlemagne's heir or possibly the man himself if his intentions become clear, but with clear support from the Pope.

I entirely agree, and it'd be a doozy of a war.

But it'd also effectively be a "Restore the Roman Empire" result if the "Kaiser" and the Byzantines win. Not an easy win, but considering the Byzantines have the sea and the Danube, they are far more mobile.

Plus, it isn't like we'd see no infighting among the "Rebels". If this is a long-term game place, you could very well see non-Carolingians rebelling in favour of the "Kaiser". Throw a mix of rebellion, factionalism, and mobility and I think you have a clear advantage for team "Kaiser-Byzantine", even considering the presence of Persia in the East.
 
Plus, it isn't like we'd see no infighting among the "Rebels". If this is a long-term game place, you could very well see non-Carolingians rebelling in favour of the "Kaiser". Throw a mix of rebellion, factionalism, and mobility and I think you have a clear advantage for team "Kaiser-Byzantine", even considering the presence of Persia in the East.

Yes, but there'd be enough moving parts that I wouldn't be sure of any outcome. Besides, minor variations could have massive consequences for the future of Europe even with a Romano-Byzantine victory...and I think the non-Frankish peoples of the Empire would sooner rebel to leave it than rebel for the Emperor.
 
If this leads to Charlemagne mostly leaving Italy alone, where does he go instead? Perhaps he tries to conquer Hispania, or maybe he pushes further east into Central Europe?
 
If this leads to Charlemagne mostly leaving Italy alone, where does he go instead? Perhaps he tries to conquer Hispania, or maybe he pushes further east into Central Europe?

In all seriousness, is there anything worth taking further east at this point? Moravia? Bohemia might be worth it. It'd be amusing to see him go to Britain on the premise of "I'm the Roman Emperor, it's mine!"

Spain, IMO - would be a worse version of Italy - the Pyrenees are still a pain, and it is far from the heart of the Empire.
 
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