WI: Cesare Borgia becomes Roman Emperor

GameBawesome

GameBawesome

Based of this time line https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...red-rome-timeline.410232/page-6#post-14261329 and base off this map on Deviantart https://www.deviantart.com/maonsie/art/AH-Italy-1506-533029442

What if Cesare Borgia never lost support from the Pope, and conquered enough land, leading to the Pope declaring him Roman Emperor, and restoration of the Roman Empire

This leads to a Roman (Borgia) conquest of central Italy, only the Republic of Venice, Republic of Genoa, the kingdom of Naples only independent.

How would this effect Europe?
Would this leads to a war with the HRE?
Would this turn the Renaissance up to a eleven?
How would Countries like Spain and France react?
Would Cesare be a good or bad Roman Emperor?
Would the House of Borgia maintain they’re grip on the Papacy and Roman Empire?
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
The Pope who is his dad?

OK then Cesare could I guess conquer more duchies, but even getting all of Italy is not Roman Emperor...

The Pope is going to need an heir in this, lol and Cesare is his blood heir but out of the reckoning. Who would back his schemes after his death and be trusted to do so?

I can see this as an interesting idea!

best regards
Grey Wolf
 
GameBawesome

GameBawesome

Grey Wolf said:
The Pope who is his dad?

OK then Cesare could I guess conquer more duchies, but even getting all of Italy is not Roman Emperor...

The Pope is going to need an heir in this, lol and Cesare is his blood heir but out of the reckoning. Who would back his schemes after his death and be trusted to do so?
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Cesare father, Pope Alexander VI, died of illness in OTL, so if he lived longer ITL, he could supported Cesare.

In OTL, Pope Alexander VI successor, Pope Pius III, I think (correct me if wrong) was pro-Borgia, but he died a month as Pope. The next Pope wasn’t pro-Borgia, and this lead to Cesare’s downfall.
 
Grey Wolf

Grey Wolf

Donor
GameBawesome said:
Cesare father, Pope Alexander VI, died of illness in OTL, so if he lived longer ITL, he could supported Cesare.

In OTL, Pope Alexander VI successor, Pope Pius III, I think (correct me if wrong) was pro-Borgia, but he died a month as Pope. The next Pope wasn’t pro-Borgia, and this lead to Cesare’s downfall.
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Ah thanks!

I wasnt remembering all the details

But as you say, it depends on the Poope

best rgards
Grey Wolf
 

alexmilman

Grey Wolf said:
Ah thanks!

I wasnt remembering all the details

But as you say, it depends on the Poope

best rgards
Grey Wolf
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Not even quite that unless we are going to assume that there is going to be an uninterrupted sequence of the Popes completely supportive of Cesare activities, most of them are going to happen at Papacy expense, both financially and territorially. After this is guaranteed, we need just a trifle, elimination of the Italian Wars because creation of a powerful Italian state would not be in the French or Spanish interests and a scope of what could be achieved by the balancing diplomatic activities had serious limits and the same goes for Cesare’s ability to create a military force capable to stand up to the main OTL opponents.

In OTL ha was capable of picking up few possessions which formally were the Papal vassals but then he had to crush rebellion of his condotierries who also happened to be the lords of the formally Papal territories and saw the potential danger of his activities. Size of his own troops was limited (and, IIRC, he was using some Spanish help) and even his relatively small army was seriously stretching financial abilities of the Papacy (hence the Jubilee Year and other revenue-producing tricks): revenues from the territories he controlled seems to be inadequate for the task.

Would a Pope who is not his father supportive of converting the Papal territories into a single secular state? Obviously, this process would mean that the Papacy is losing all its secular power.

Would the Hapsburgs or France support creation of such a state? If it grows up to a significant size (say, the whole Papal territories), it can easily became a significant factor in the Italian Wars and not necessarily friendly to any specific side in any specific moment. Definitely, more difficult to control than the minor Italian states. Plus, if it is growing big enough, it is controlling communications between Naples and Northern Italy, which definitely creates inconvenience for Spain.

Actually, there is a series of alt-history books (4 so far) based on schema similar to one in the OP. Of course, Cesare (mind of a XXI person transplanted into true Cesare brain; needless to say that the person in question possesses a lot of useful information of all types, including certain areas of chemistry and military history) is made a King, not an emperor. So far, he is beating the Ottomans on the Balkans and already arranged for a convenient demise of Charles VIII). AFAIK, not available in English.
 

M79

He'd still likely need most of the rest of his life to unite Italy, besides France and the Ottomans are not going to like that. It could lead to the Ottomans trying to occupy part of the peninsula itself again, maybe even taking Bari or Naples. If it backfires completely the whole of Southern Italy might answer to Istanbul once more.
 
Dolan

Dolan

Banned
I could see the Borgias actually hold up on the ideas of "Roman Empire" and actually goes rather well into 1530's due to Italian economic strength combined with maybe "Roman Nationalism" they might instill on their Italian subjects... but...

Whelp, if OTL reformations were bad, with such blatant abuse of power, I could see Holy Roman Empire ends up outright supporting Martin Luther from the start. And France, concerned with how the Italians suddenly turned that insane, decides that Jean Calvin might be a good alternative authority on religion. So in effect, Luther and Calvin would be pretty much met widespread support from their governments (that didn't want to end up being turned into Roman Vassals).

Ironically though, with current Italian Papacy ends up being more blatantly deviated, once Franco-German army break into Roma, they will declare the Borgia-dominated Papacy as being illegal/unlawful Papacy, and THEN will ask the Reformers to reconstitute the Papacy.

Have fun with Pope Jean Calvin, and this turned out to be a prequel of His Dark Materials.
 

Andros

alexmilman said:
Not even quite that unless we are going to assume that there is going to be an uninterrupted sequence of the Popes completely supportive of Cesare activities, most of them are going to happen at Papacy expense, both financially and territorially. After this is guaranteed, we need just a trifle, elimination of the Italian Wars because creation of a powerful Italian state would not be in the French or Spanish interests and a scope of what could be achieved by the balancing diplomatic activities had serious limits and the same goes for Cesare’s ability to create a military force capable to stand up to the main OTL opponents.

In OTL ha was capable of picking up few possessions which formally were the Papal vassals but then he had to crush rebellion of his condotierries who also happened to be the lords of the formally Papal territories and saw the potential danger of his activities. Size of his own troops was limited (and, IIRC, he was using some Spanish help) and even his relatively small army was seriously stretching financial abilities of the Papacy (hence the Jubilee Year and other revenue-producing tricks): revenues from the territories he controlled seems to be inadequate for the task.

Would a Pope who is not his father supportive of converting the Papal territories into a single secular state? Obviously, this process would mean that the Papacy is losing all its secular power.

Would the Hapsburgs or France support creation of such a state? If it grows up to a significant size (say, the whole Papal territories), it can easily became a significant factor in the Italian Wars and not necessarily friendly to any specific side in any specific moment. Definitely, more difficult to control than the minor Italian states. Plus, if it is growing big enough, it is controlling communications between Naples and Northern Italy, which definitely creates inconvenience for Spain.

Actually, there is a series of alt-history books (4 so far) based on schema similar to one in the OP. Of course, Cesare (mind of a XXI person transplanted into true Cesare brain; needless to say that the person in question possesses a lot of useful information of all types, including certain areas of chemistry and military history) is made a King, not an emperor. So far, he is beating the Ottomans on the Balkans and already arranged for a convenient demise of Charles VIII). AFAIK, not available in English.
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what are the names of these stories and their authors?
 
ByzantineCaesar

ByzantineCaesar

King of Italy I could see, Roman Emperor is very hard and implausible. There is a TL out there of Cesare becoming the Holy Roman Emperor somehow, though, if you would like to have a look.
 

M79

I think "Emperor of the Romans" in this context is very different from, "Emperor of Rome" in the classical sense. It would be a fancy title for a King of and enlarged Italy more or less
 

alexmilman

M79 said:
I think "Emperor of the Romans" in this context is very different from, "Emperor of Rome" in the classical sense. It would be a fancy title for a King of and enlarged Italy more or less
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Usage of the imperial title, no matter how formulated, would not be taken mildly within the HRE.
 
GameBawesome

GameBawesome

Kaze said:
Unite Italy - that might be in the cards, but Roman empire would take ASB.
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It’s just a mostly United Italy, all but in name. They just call themselves the Roman Empire, and Cesare is the Roman Emperor.

But his would the HRE react to this?
 

alexmilman

GameBawesome said:
It’s just a mostly United Italy, all but in name. They just call themselves the Roman Empire, and Cesare is the Roman Emperor.

But his would the HRE react to this?
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Even United Italy s ASB because you have to defeat Spain on the South and HRE or France on the North, not to mention Venice. The imperial title also is not realistic: there is the only empire, the HRE, and the only emperor, one of the HRE. In OTL it took Hapsburgs 2 decades to recognize the non-competing imperial title of the Russia rulers who by that time were valuable allies and at least an equally strong military power. In this TL the title is competing and Italian “emperor” is clearly weaker. No reason for the French to recognize it either: why would King of France accept the claim that firmally makes Italian ruler higher than he?
 

John7755 يوحنا

Why would the Papacy want to enrage the lords of Europe by creating two or three Roman emperors? France at times toyed with this Roman Empire view and we have the Holy Roman Empire. If the Papacy had crowned the current emperor, then how can he then crown another? This wound be a comedy of sorts.
 

alexmilman

John7755 يوحنا said:
Why would the Papacy want to enrage the lords of Europe by creating two or three Roman emperors? France at times toyed with this Roman Empire view and we have the Holy Roman Empire. If the Papacy had crowned the current emperor, then how can he then crown another? This wound be a comedy of sorts.
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The obvious answer is it would not by all the reasons you listed and probably few more.

Well, strictly speaking, Maximillian never was physically crowned by the Pope: Julius II just proclaimed him an emperor in 1508. However, Frederic V was and formality does not really matter.
 
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