WI: Centralized Holy Roman Empire

What if Frederick Barbarossa defeats the Lombard League at Legnano causing the absolute crushing of the northern Italian cities in the following years as well as the replacement of Alexander III with a succession of Popes no more than puppets to the Holy Roman Emperor? Frederick Barbarossa never drowns to death and his longer reign secures the survival of the Hohenstaufens more much longer resulting in the centralization of the Holy Roman Empire into something that could be mapped out without losing your sanity?

What would be the implications of such a POD?
 
Should this centralization be a lasting once, you'd also have a much different take on the Reformation, unless it gets butterflied away. Much of the gains made by the Protestants through the Reformation were facilitated by how decentralized the Holy Roman Empire was.

Immediately however, Barbarossa probably faces several uprisings or baronial revolts from princes and electors who would fear so much power, land, and wealth going into the hands of one man. May even be plenty of electorates that would just try and bail altogether and find themselves running into the arms of some of the other regional powers at the time, especially France.
 
Should this centralization be a lasting once, you'd also have a much different take on the Reformation, unless it gets butterflied away. Much of the gains made by the Protestants through the Reformation were facilitated by how decentralized the Holy Roman Empire was.

Immediately however, Barbarossa probably faces several uprisings or baronial revolts from princes and electors who would fear so much power, land, and wealth going into the hands of one man. May even be plenty of electorates that would just try and bail altogether and find themselves running into the arms of some of the other regional powers at the time, especially France.
Assuming Frederick Barbarossa crushes a huge rebellion before his death, could this centralization be maintained. Maybe the rebellion takes place after his death and it is up to Henry VI to crush the rebellion. I'm assuming that a Hohenstaufen victory would see the power of the Electorates forever ruined.
 

trajen777

Banned
SO here is the best TL i can think of :
1. Barbarossa wins over the Lombard's
2. Barb has a friendly support of the Popes
3. Barb has son Henry VI made HRE
4. On crusade he does not go for a swim -- (his army badly defeated the Turks in Anatolia) -- so he captures Aleppo (makes it a crusader kingdom - which makes the Crusader states very viable) -- and Jerusalem - giving him massive political power.
5. now 1 of 2 ways -- the first is he listens to Richard and campaigns in Egypt, captures it , and takes 20% of revenue (with Richard 20% ) the rest supports the Crusader states. IN addition their is a massive haul of booty that he takes back to Germany (allowing him Prestige and wealth to bribe/ force the Princes to make Henry a heriditory monarch (Henry was very close to forcing this thru with the money from Richards ransom and capture of Sicily). With the French abandoning a very successful crusade a German is made the new King of Jersu. (Barb son Fredrick VI. ) ---the other is Richard is captured so provides the funds as ransom / i love the first way.
6. Barb returns to Germany and between bribes and prestige make the HRE hereditary.
7. Barb dies
8. Henry invades Sicily 1194 and captures the country (hemming in the pope in from the north and south). He now is ruler of a united Germany, His brother is K of J under the Emperor, and Sicily (very rich) is directly his. The Lombard states in the north are also his (and with a lack of the traditional battles between the pope and the Emperors ) they stay as part of the HRE. (much of the wars were fought over the Emperor desire to appoint bishops in Germany).
9. IN 1195 -- He already evolved plans to betroth his younger brother Philip to Isaac's daughter Princess Irene Angelina —deliberately or not— opening up a perspective to unite the Western and Eastern Empire under Hohenstaufen rule. According to the contemporary historian Niketas Choniates his legates were able to collect a large tribute from Isaac's brother and successor Alexios III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)
10. No 1204 4th crusade
11. So now u need to keep Henry alive (does not go hunting in Italy) -- and have him rule for 20 years more -- with the Emperor in alliance with England / Henry brother (potential emperor in Byz ) -- his other brother emp in KOJ -- and Sicily in his control -- plus an easier relationship with N Italy and the Pope . With a strong central gov .
 
SO here is the best TL i can think of :
1. Barbarossa wins over the Lombard's
2. Barb has a friendly support of the Popes
3. Barb has son Henry VI made HRE
4. On crusade he does not go for a swim -- (his army badly defeated the Turks in Anatolia) -- so he captures Aleppo (makes it a crusader kingdom - which makes the Crusader states very viable) -- and Jerusalem - giving him massive political power.
5. now 1 of 2 ways -- the first is he listens to Richard and campaigns in Egypt, captures it , and takes 20% of revenue (with Richard 20% ) the rest supports the Crusader states. IN addition their is a massive haul of booty that he takes back to Germany (allowing him Prestige and wealth to bribe/ force the Princes to make Henry a heriditory monarch (Henry was very close to forcing this thru with the money from Richards ransom and capture of Sicily). With the French abandoning a very successful crusade a German is made the new King of Jersu. (Barb son Fredrick VI. ) ---the other is Richard is captured so provides the funds as ransom / i love the first way.
6. Barb returns to Germany and between bribes and prestige make the HRE hereditary.
7. Barb dies
8. Henry invades Sicily 1194 and captures the country (hemming in the pope in from the north and south). He now is ruler of a united Germany, His brother is K of J under the Emperor, and Sicily (very rich) is directly his. The Lombard states in the north are also his (and with a lack of the traditional battles between the pope and the Emperors ) they stay as part of the HRE. (much of the wars were fought over the Emperor desire to appoint bishops in Germany).
9. IN 1195 -- He already evolved plans to betroth his younger brother Philip to Isaac's daughter Princess Irene Angelina —deliberately or not— opening up a perspective to unite the Western and Eastern Empire under Hohenstaufen rule. According to the contemporary historian Niketas Choniates his legates were able to collect a large tribute from Isaac's brother and successor Alexios III (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VI,_Holy_Roman_Emperor)
10. No 1204 4th crusade
11. So now u need to keep Henry alive (does not go hunting in Italy) -- and have him rule for 20 years more -- with the Emperor in alliance with England / Henry brother (potential emperor in Byz ) -- his other brother emp in KOJ -- and Sicily in his control -- plus an easier relationship with N Italy and the Pope . With a strong central gov .

All this concentrated power in Hohenstaufen hands would be sure to incite some of the other European kingdoms to form alliances against them, since this scenario is turning the Hohenstaufens into proto-Habsburgs. And with this newly found power and influence, King John of England has a powerful ally to go to when he decides to go to war over his interests in France, while putting the French and King Philip Augustus on a permanent wartime footing and also looking to thwart the HRE any way he can. A battle similar to the Battle of Bouvines from OTL probably happens much sooner and the odds would be even more against France.
 

trajen777

Banned
All this concentrated power in Hohenstaufen hands would be sure to incite some of the other European kingdoms to form alliances against them, since this scenario is turning the Hohenstaufens into proto-Habsburgs. And with this newly found power and influence, King John of England has a powerful ally to go to when he decides to go to war over his interests in France, while putting the French and King Philip Augustus on a permanent wartime footing and also looking to thwart the HRE any way he can. A battle similar to the Battle of Bouvines from OTL probably happens much sooner and the odds would be even more against France.

Without 1204, and with a hof. Dynasty on the byz thrown or at least alliagned with the hre it would not happen. You then have bulk work against Muslim encroachments. With Aleppo and Egypt under hof leadership and the wealth of these areas the crusader states are in good shape, they just need damascas to have strong interior protection. So you have poland, the rus, and France as enemies, with occasional issues with rebellions in n italy. So until you have bad rulers unhave a good run.
 
I've been reading about Berengaria of Castile. Could the Hohenstaufens pull off something with her? And what will be the result of Norman adventuring in North Africa?
 
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The nightmare scenario for the French would be if the barons of the modern Low Countries decide to all throw in their lots with this newly powerful Hohenstaufen-led Holy Roman Empire, which would pretty much leave France's northern border wide open to English, German, or Flemish attacks and a clear path to Paris.

Even worse, this version of the HRE could finally be the one to keep the Papacy under it's thumb. The Auld Alliance with Scotland would be even more important to both France and Scotland, plus France would also do more to secure alliances with the Spanish kingdoms of Castille, Aragon, and Navarre. Seeing how the Germans are gaining in strength in the Holy Land, and the Teutonic Order about to begin their Baltic Crusades, France would likely turn south and send their prospective Crusaders to participate in the Reconquista.
 
A Habsburgs who decisively win the 30 years war (before the danish/Swedish interventions) would be allowed the victors spoils and force centralizing reforms on the HRE states. It might "cost" the Habsburgs religious tolerance but that is a minor price for the prize of the whole HRE
 
Eh just need a curropt pope or three not uncommon in the era

I doubt you could do this in the 13th century. In the 13th century alone, we see fearsome Papacies as more a rule than an exception. Especially Innocent III and Boniface VIII. Exactly how will the Hohenstaufen counter a papacy such as Innocent III or Boniface VIII? The French perhaps had become lucky against Boniface VIII and the Empire itself relied heavily upon the Papacy.

The power of the Papacy in regards to the Empire in this period, should not be taken lightly. They certainly present the most fearsome opposition to the Hohenstaufen, perhaps more so than the French.
 
I doubt you could do this in the 13th century. In the 13th century alone, we see fearsome Papacies as more a rule than an exception. Especially Innocent III and Boniface VIII. Exactly how will the Hohenstaufen counter a papacy such as Innocent III or Boniface VIII? The French perhaps had become lucky against Boniface VIII and the Empire itself relied heavily upon the Papacy.

The power of the Papacy in regards to the Empire in this period, should not be taken lightly. They certainly present the most fearsome opposition to the Hohenstaufen, perhaps more so than the French.
If Barbarossa replaces Alexander III with his own Pope, this would begin a period of Imperial dominance over the Papacy that could end in the Pope's legitimacy throughout Europe being destroyed with him now reduced to a figurehead.
 
If Barbarossa replaces Alexander III with his own Pope, this would begin a period of Imperial dominance over the Papacy that could end in the Pope's legitimacy throughout Europe being destroyed with him now reduced to a figurehead.
Alexander wasn't the first Pope with opposition backed by the Emperor, and if deposed wouldn't be the last, consolidating Imperial authority and avoiding the feudal disintegration of the late 13th century under the Stauffen era is certainly feasible, but it will take more than "button push" solutions to archive that.
 
If Barbarossa replaces Alexander III with his own Pope, this would begin a period of Imperial dominance over the Papacy that could end in the Pope's legitimacy throughout Europe being destroyed with him now reduced to a figurehead.

How exactly does the Emperor plan to perpetually enforce the Papacy into servitude? The best option in my opinion is to have the emperor give into Papal demands and work with the Papacy, than what it did otl and battle the Papacy.
 
Alexander wasn't the first Pope with opposition backed by the Emperor, and if deposed wouldn't be the last, consolidating Imperial authority and avoiding the feudal disintegration of the late 13th century under the Stauffen era is certainly feasible, but it will take more than "button push" solutions to archive that.

How exactly does the Emperor plan to perpetually enforce the Papacy into servitude? The best option in my opinion is to have the emperor give into Papal demands and work with the Papacy, than what it did otl and battle the Papacy.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the Emperors be able to dominate Papal elections and essentially turn the Pope into a puppet through forcing through Popes friendly to the Emperor and deposing them if they turn against the Emperor.
 
Alexander wasn't the first Pope with opposition backed by the Emperor, and if deposed wouldn't be the last, consolidating Imperial authority and avoiding the feudal disintegration of the late 13th century under the Stauffen era is certainly feasible, but it will take more than "button push" solutions to archive that.
Ck2 reference?
 
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