WI: Ceasar killed doing Siege of Alexandria

What would happen if Ceasar was killed doing the Siege of Alexandria, say drowning while fleeing the Lighthouse when Arsinoe's army attacked the small roman detachment holding it?

Cleopatra would likely be killed by Ptoley XIII and Arsinoe IV, but what would happen otherwise?
 
What would happen if Ceasar was killed doing the Siege of Alexandria, say drowning while fleeing the Lighthouse when Arsinoe's army attacked the small roman detachment holding it?

Cleopatra would likely be killed by Ptoley XIII and Arsinoe IV, but what would happen otherwise?


Then Marcus Antonius, as Master of Horse, tries to take over as Dictator and makes an enormous mess of matters, as the man was about as subtle as a brick. In which case Cicero steps in, finds a way to get him out, and then the Roman Republic re-emerges from the tomb - sadly as a zombie, until it finally gets put out of its misery. Chances are that Octavianus never comes to power, as he wasn't Caesar's heir at that time.
 

Yuelang

Banned
Then Marcus Antonius, as Master of Horse, tries to take over as Dictator and makes an enormous mess of matters, as the man was about as subtle as a brick. In which case Cicero steps in, finds a way to get him out, and then the Roman Republic re-emerges from the tomb - sadly as a zombie, until it finally gets put out of its misery. Chances are that Octavianus never comes to power, as he wasn't Caesar's heir at that time.

Nah, there will be no Roman Republic Zombie...

We'll see Ciceroan Reform of the Republican apparatus, permanently outlawing military strongmen and cracking down on corruption. :D
 
Nah, there will be no Roman Republic Zombie...

We'll see Ciceroan Reform of the Republican apparatus, permanently outlawing military strongmen and cracking down on corruption. :D

Hm yeah the res publica restituta with Cicero as a simple Princeps with one or two powers like the imperium or the power of a tribune...
 

Yuelang

Banned
Hm yeah the res publica restituta with Cicero as a simple Princeps with one or two powers like the imperium or the power of a tribune...

But at least with Cicero's integrity, he won't just take the Republic Office as merely hereditary thing... he will serve until the emergency was done, arrange a fair and democratic votes before stepping down from office... :p
 
What would happen if Ceasar was killed doing the Siege of Alexandria, say drowning while fleeing the Lighthouse when Arsinoe's army attacked the small roman detachment holding it?

Cleopatra would likely be killed by Ptoley XIII and Arsinoe IV, but what would happen otherwise?

What a mess !

You have the republican-numidian army concentrating in Africa.

And you have Pompey's two sons who are still in Africa but who may well go to Spain (as they did OTL) to raise their father's clientelae against the inept caesarian governor.

And you have the fact that Caesar has no obvious lieutenant at that time.

I would however bet on the possible decisive role of the kind of central moderate party that had rallied to Caesar and whose members had many links with Servilia, Caesar's old lover : Marcus Aemilius Lepidus (son in law of Servilia), Publius Servilius Isauricus (son in law of Servilia), Marcus Junius Brutus (Servilia's son), Gaius Cassius Longinus.

Add Cicero and the other high moderate nobles that had an important role OTL in the years 44/42 : Servius Sulpicius Rufus, the old Aurelius Cotta (related to Caesar); Lucius Calpurnius Piso (Caesar's last father in law).
 
What a mess !

You have the republican-numidian army concentrating in Africa.

And you have Pompey's two sons who are still in Africa but who may well go to Spain (as they did OTL) to raise their father's clientelae against the inept caesarian governor.

ye, Pompey's sons were surprisingly initiative and competent. These boys would tear everybody else apart.
 
Then Marcus Antonius, as Master of Horse, tries to take over as Dictator and makes an enormous mess of matters, as the man was about as subtle as a brick. In which case Cicero steps in, finds a way to get him out, and then the Roman Republic re-emerges from the tomb - sadly as a zombie, until it finally gets put out of its misery. Chances are that Octavianus never comes to power, as he wasn't Caesar's heir at that time.

Why would Antony establish a dictatorship? Following Caesar's assassination he tried to reach an understanding with the liberatores and it wasn't until a relentless barrage from Cicero and Octavian appearing to take away some of his support that he was attacked. Say what you want about Antony, he may have been as subtle as a brick, but he's not a complete idiot. Especially when you consider there are still strong Republican forces operating in North Africa and Spain.
 
did Antony even have the power base nessesary to push himself for the grand prize in '47? specially with the opposing forces that hung around in north africa (the sorry pieces of Cato and his republicans) and more factions around the empire than you could sake a sword at.

What would happen to Ceasars image in the populace if he drowned fleeing the Lighthouse instead of being assassinated?
 
did Antony even have the power base nessesary to push himself for the grand prize in '47? specially with the opposing forces that hung around in north africa (the sorry pieces of Cato and his republicans) and more factions around the empire than you could sake a sword at.

What would happen to Ceasars image in the populace if he drowned fleeing the Lighthouse instead of being assassinated?

No, and Antony knew it. Even in 44, it was telling that his first move was to reach some sort of understanding and compromise with the liberators. Antony's power base and support is really overblown imo. Did Caesar even change his will yet to take Pompey out of it?

And anyway, more important than Pompey's sons (who are great in their own right), Titus Labienus is still alive and kicking. And that man is almost as good a commander as Caesar imo.
 
Caesars dictatorship ends with his dead. In the same moment Antonius is not longer Magister Equitum. And the consuls take over. So IRL, when Caesar died 44 BC, Antonius was consul and therefore in a much better position, than a (ex-) magister equitum. If no consuls are elected, which happened sometimes during a dictatorship, the senate has to appoint an interrex, in order to manage immediate elections. No problem, because the real executive of the roman republic were not the consuls or other magistrates but the senate!

Just a hint for all people, who think that Cicero had a good idea about a reform of the republic: just read de legibus and de res publica and some of his letters dealing with this subject. Ciceros proposals are more than naive. He almost completely missed the basic issues of the roman society and constitution, which led to this mess called late republic. Well, he had some useful ideas about further buerocratization and a so called mediator. Octavian had read Ciceros scrolls obviously. But implemented it his way.

It all comes down to the old question: Was the republic doomed to death (Montsquieu), or did it just need more time to reform itself (Green).

And I agree with Sly: Antonius might be rough, but not plain stupid or suicidal. He simply goes home as a man of private means and starts to play the big game again by looking for new partners.

PS: Was Antonius still Magister Equitum, when Caesar fought in Alexandria?
 
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How do these scenarios play out for the East? Does it take longer for Rome to re-organise and absorb Egypt? Does Judea under the Herodians stay remain independent longer? (hint, hint)
 
Any scenario that doesn't have either (or both):

A. single man rule
B. the egyptian pharaoh choosing the wrong side in a civil war that leads to a.

is generally going to have quicker annexation of Egypt. Because otherwise the senators were not about to let anyone get the credit, clientele, and money that comes with being the one who gets through the annexation and becomes first governor of Egypt.

For the rest of the east, the Romans preferred client states to direct administration wherever possible, so I don't see why the client kings wont last much longer.
 
Caesar had changed his will before going to Alexandria.

He had read this part of his will some kind of publicly to demonstrate that he had always wanted to find an agreement with Pompey and find an agreement with him.

Between 48 and 46, his heir designated in his will probably was his cousin Sextus Julius Caesar (grandson of the consul of 91).

The reaction of the people would probably he fear : fear of a possible violent victorious and bloody return of the optimates and of Pompey's sons.

That's what Cicero's letters showed.
 
Antonius.
We should realise that in OTL after pacification of Alexandria and Egypt (and his prolonged rest with Cleopatra) Julius Caesar took great pains to conquer North Africa and Spain from his opponents. These campaigns were with great personal risks and risks of total annihilation of his armies. Only military genius of Julious Caesar saved his course.
I just do not see any general among the Caesarians who could do the same instead of Caesar. In OTL Caesar pardoned a good amount of his enemies; I seriously doubt that in this ATL the Caesarians might expect the same cortesy from their enemies who in a matter of months would own all Roman Republic / Empire. The only surviving Caesarians will be those smart enough to turncoats first immediately after Caesar death, to flee to the Pompeans, Republicans with soldiers or/and resources.
So if Antonius risks to fight against anti-Caesarian coalition he will be defeated as he was less than ordinary general to say the least. But as a politician he was much better and he might smell the winner and change his side in the Civil war and live the rest of his life fearing for his life.

Titus Labienus was a descent general; I mean like hundreds of the Roman generals before him. He was not a military genius like Caesar. Though I agree that he will take a prominent position after the eventual victory of anti-Caesarian forces.
 
Labienus, tactically speaking, was close to an alter-ego of Caesar. During his gallic campaign, Caesar trusted him with the most important missions and more troops than any other legate.

The decisive factor in Caesar winning the civil war was, more than his personal genius, the fact that he enjoyed the absolutely total personal loyalty of the best troops Rome ever had, on top of all stood the legendary 10th legion.

But you are right : some victories and campaigns would probably have been lost by any other general than Caesar, especially Munda.
 
The decisive factor in Caesar winning the civil war was, more than his personal genius, the fact that he enjoyed the absolutely total personal loyalty of the best troops Rome ever had, on top of all stood the legendary 10th legion.
My definition of personal genius includes (among many other things) an ability to achieve almost total personal loyalty of the best troops.
 
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