WI: Catholic League Annhilated at Lech

Now Gustavus Adolphus won this battle, but if Tilly hadn't been mortally wounded early on the catholic army could have been obliterated. What would the ramifications have been if that had happened?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Rain#Tactics
The battle is, however, more interesting from a tactical point of view rather than from its outcome, as the elaborate plan of Gustavus Adolphus to catch the entire Imperial army by complex maneuvering was prevented when Tilly was mortally wounded in the battle, resulting in the early retreat of the Imperial army. The Swedish battle plan consisted of two major elements:

1. A strong feint attack by a portion of the Swedish infantry with heavy artillery support against Tilly's strongly fortified center behind the river Lech. The intended effect was to attract the full attention of the Imperial army and its reserve. The Swedish force succeeded in establishing and fortifying its position on a small island or peninsula close to the Imperial side of the river. From this position, it was able to repel a series of fierce Imperial counterattacks despite being outnumbered.

2. As the Imperial army got tied up in desperate attempts to eliminate the Swedish bridgehead, the Swedish cavalry with no opposition or attention from the enemy was able to cross the river 10 km south of the Imperial left wing. From this position they intended to outflank the entire Imperial army and thus catch it in a position with the river and the Swedish infantry at its front and the Swedish cavalry in its rear and on its flanks.

With Tilly mortally wounded, the morale of the Imperial army quickly dissolved and the army withdrew before the arrival of the Swedish cavalry. Thus, Tilly's death possibly saved his army from annihilation. Nonetheless, both armies suffered considerable losses (3,000 on the Imperial side, 2,000 on the Swedish), mostly due to frontal attacks and counterattacks against fortified positions with strong natural defenses.
 
Last edited:
The French withdraw funding from Vasa, having no desire to see a Swedish hegemon replace a Habsburg one. Lots of Germans die.
 
Could the Swedes be a hegemon? Sweden was a small and quite poor country which possesed an exellent military organisation for a while, which allowed it to punch above its weight. This isn`t a recipie for prolonged hegemony the way the combined power of the Hapsburgs or France was.
 
Could the Swedes be a hegemon? Sweden was a small and quite poor country which possesed an exellent military organisation for a while, which allowed it to punch above its weight. This isn`t a recipie for prolonged hegemony the way the combined power of the Hapsburgs or France was.

If they where able to get Denmark they could probably manage it, otherwise probably not.
 

Flubber

Banned
Could the Swedes be a hegemon?


No, Sweden isn't large/rich enough to become a central European hegemon. As Faeelin arelady explained, Sweden needed French subsidies simply do accomplish what it did in the OTL.

If Sweden performs incredibly better and begins to show signs of becoming a hegemon, France stops sending checks and Sweden's abilities are subsequently and substantially diminished.
 
Might the war have ended with two rival Emperors? A Protestant one in the north and a Catholic one in the south?
 
yes but are the french going to immidiately with draw support after a crushing swedish victory at Lech? I think the French would continue to support the Swedes until the Hapsburgs are greatly diminished. Is this victory enough to do that?

I thinlk Gustav was more likely to try an break off northern germany than become holy ROMAN emperor
 
yes but are the french going to immidiately with draw support after a crushing swedish victory at Lech? I think the French would continue to support the Swedes until the Hapsburgs are greatly diminished. Is this victory enough to do that?

I thinlk Gustav was more likely to try an break off northern germany than become holy ROMAN emperor

Weakening the Habsburgs is one thing, but for France to continue to support a nation, which would be a new dominant power, I doubt that. IMHO France didn't want any hegemonic power in the HRE; a HRE dominated by Sweden is just as bad as one dominated by Austria.
 
Last edited:
Weakening the Habsburgs is one thing, but for France to continue to support a nation, which would a new dominant power, I doubt that. IMHO France didn't want any hegemonic power in the HRE; a HRE dominated by Sweden is just as bad as one dominated by Austria.

I agree, I just don't think even a crushing victory is enough for a Swedish dominated HRE. Eventually, yes, the French would withdraw their support, but it might well end up with the Hapsburgs reduced further, and the HRE split into northern and southern parts more firmly.
 
How will Swedish gains from the eventual peace be? OTL Sweden received an indemnation five million talers, as well as Western Pommerania, Wismar, Bremen and Verden, and some Mecklemburgian toll ports, and a lot of these gains ended up being disputed.
 
Weakening the Habsburgs is one thing, but for France to continue to support a nation, which would a new dominant power, I doubt that. IMHO France didn't want any hegemonic power in the HRE; a HRE dominated by Sweden is just as bad as one dominated by Austria.

I just don't think Sweden has the manpower to be a dominant power. More likely for Germany to be firmly split into two camps. That would be great from the French perspective.
 
But that's boring. :(

Not if you're German.:( Seriously, though even if the Catholic League's army is wiped out entirely Ferdinand and his allies will simply raise another. Gustavus might wind up in a better position to fight the next campaign, but that's about the limit. You need more than just a successful battle to really change the dynamics of the situation.

If you haven't read any of the 1632 series, do; the authors cover dynamics of the period very well.
 
Not if you're German.:( Seriously, though even if the Catholic League's army is wiped out entirely Ferdinand and his allies will simply raise another. Gustavus might wind up in a better position to fight the next campaign, but that's about the limit. You need more than just a successful battle to really change the dynamics of the situation.
Win enough crushing battles and the situations will change.
 
Win enough crushing battles and the situations will change.

But not necessarily to the benefit of the winner. See Napoleon's campaigns for numerous examples of this. An all-conquering Swedish Empire will be seen as a menace by the Danes, HRE, Poles, Russians, and French, and viewed with trepidation by the Dutch and Germans; Gustavus might well find half of Europe opposing him. Even he would have trouble holding everything together then.
 
Which just proves my point; Charles X managed to overrun Poland, but in the face of opposition from all quarters eventually had to settle for a draw (winning territory from Denmark, losing territory to Poland and Russia). Had the war continued Sweden might well have lost even more territory.
Exactly what territory did they lose, compared to ante bellum? :confused:
 
Top