So, in effect, what happens as England remains Roman Catholic? Other than that gag on Top Gear involving the stupid things Catholics often pray for, of course.
WI: Catherine of Aragon's eldest son survives; no disagreement with the Pope
- Thread starter Harald Sigurdson II
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England is likelier to be pro-Habsburg what with no CoE making the Spanish branch breathe down their necks.
France is gonna be seriously annoyed about being encircled by Spain, the HRE, and the English. Perhaps it has more impetus to embrace the Reformation rather than emphasize its "first daughter of the Church" thing in OTL.
France is gonna be seriously annoyed about being encircled by Spain, the HRE, and the English. Perhaps it has more impetus to embrace the Reformation rather than emphasize its "first daughter of the Church" thing in OTL.
England is likely to still go Protestant. (Or, if you're an OTL Anglican, go Protestant instead of CofE.) Look at Scotland for an analogy. Although there might be no Established Religion, being split between (various kinds of) Calvinists and Lutherans, and Roman Catholics.
The CofE was uniquely suited to (dis)please Protestants and Catholics equally. Without a safe halfway house like that, there may be even more religious strife.
The CofE was uniquely suited to (dis)please Protestants and Catholics equally. Without a safe halfway house like that, there may be even more religious strife.
Thing is, with a muscular Catholic monarch to their south giving aid to keep the religious status quo in place, would Scotland go Protestant? If Catholic Scots can rely on the English army to fight the Calvinists, I don't see Protestantism winning out in Scotland.
Who would Henry try and marry his son off too? I imagine a Hapsburg cousin if he really stays in alliance with the Hapsburgs, but he could be volatile. And could *Mary end up married up earlier, because she's seen as more expendable in this scenario?
Another interesting possibility is that England goes the way of OTL France: they don't officially convert but there's a considerable amount of the population that does, causing a lot of strife.
That's a good point. All you need is a male Tudor monarch with the strength of their beliefs like Mary I and if the Queen of Scots calls for help, John Knox's disciples are in for a problem.
Speaking of Mary I, she's proof it's not a given that England goes Protestant. There may be a large Protestant minority ala the Hugenots but it's not a given that Catholicism won't remain dominant. Despite the topsy turvy way Henry VIII destroyed the monasteries/convents/broke the old system and despite the few years of Edward VI's very Protestant rule, during the five years Mary ruled (despite the fact she's only known for the burnings) the Counter-Reformation was successful enough (as many modern historians have shown) that most of Elizabeth's anti-Catholic policies could not destroy a vibrant Catholic minority well into James I's reign. The reason why Anglican service was largely Catholic-lite and many of the Anglican churchmen made a point of saying they were following the "Old Church" and kept the succession of Bishops and some Catholic practices (even though many of Elizabeth's hand-picked Bishops were not too sympathetic to it) was to convince those Catholics who were on the fence. With a strong Catholic monarch, allied by blood to the Habsburgs and no Henry VIII, its a strong possibility it will be England and not France that will be seen as "Defenders of the Faith".
@ jb3: an ATL Henry VIII with a strong male heir (preferably with a spare too) would have been as Catholic as the Habsburgs or Trastamaras, the Pope didn't grant him the title 'Fidei Defensor' for nothing.
Sure the wealth of the monasteries was tempting and being able to divorce, when he wanted it, was convenient, but Henry VIII never became a radical Protestant.
Sure the wealth of the monasteries was tempting and being able to divorce, when he wanted it, was convenient, but Henry VIII never became a radical Protestant.
True - and while the break with Rome did happen during Henry VIII, the CoE only really became an institution with Edward VI then Elizabeth I.
I'm not so sure. IOTL, whilst there were Protestants in England before the Break with Rome, they weren't all that influential, and the English Reformation was largely a top-down affair.
Indeed. Historically part of the reason why Protestantism won out in Scotland is that Elizabeth I sent an army to support them; a Catholic King of England would presumably either stay out altogether or send troops and money to the Catholics.
Most of the difficulties in Ireland stemmed from religious differences, either directly or indirectly (e.g., attempts to Protestantise Ireland by bringing in lots of Protestant colonists leading to ethnic tensions). If England remained Catholic I'd expect that we'd see a less divided, better-governed Ireland, and hence no reason for Ireland to switch religion just to oppose the English. (I presume that's what you're getting at in your question?)
ETA: Of course, Ireland might still end up becoming Protestant anyway, and given that Protestantism wouldn't be associated with foreign oppression we might see Protestantism making greater inroads. Still, AFAIK Ireland wasn't that fertile a ground for Protestant ideas even before the English started enforcing the Penal Laws, so I'd say that Ireland would most likely remain Catholic if England did.
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