WI: Catherine Howard bore Henry VIII a son?
- Thread starter Shiva
- Start date
Besides she will keep her head, will the child survive, and survive means he will least at least 50 year and be king in that kind of survive?.
Other butterflies, besied the house of tudor still being alive?
Well Catherine keeps her head and her rep. Even if the details of her scandalous lifestyle gets back to Henry VIII there's a good chance he'll ignore them/ threaten anyone to brings them to his attention. This will also mean that the House of Tudor is fairly secure: even if Edward VI dies there will still be a male heir. I think a key issue will still be religion. Catherine is a Howard, a family of devoted Catholics. Chances are, assuming Henry VIII dies on schedule, this kid is 7/8 years old and his education could fall to his maternal relatives. I can see a rivalry between Edward and his half-brother if the former survives.
In the other hand, Edward VI might exclude from his brother education anyone who might be considered against a Protestant upbringing, even if they are his relatives.
When you say Edward it really means his Lord Regent, which if we go with RL would be his uncle Edward Seymour.
An ambitious fellow like him would want all his bases covered, and if anything happens to his nephew, having an 'in' with the heir, let's call him 'Henry' (due to the Tudors lack of imagination) would mean taking a direct interest in his life. Especially since the heir after him is Mary Tudor, a diehard Catholic.
Any Catholic sentiment that might have rubbed off on Prince Henry could be corrected, Mary's not so much.
It's improtant when. If it's early on I agree with what was said upthread. If it's later, when her life cae to Henry's attention he might take dimer view. More along the lines of Anne/Elizabeth. but then again, it's a boy so there ight be some leeway, like setting her aside (de facto, not de iure) but boy remaining legitimate.
That's a question which revolves around when Katherine II gives birth. But even if after rumours start to fly but before anything is "proved" she did give him a son so that's something a step above Anne I
I'm going to try something, a series of biographies depicting a TL in which Catherine Howard bore Henry a son.
The first one will be of Henry VIII starting at the POD, so it'll be only slightly different from RL.
The first one will be of Henry VIII starting at the POD, so it'll be only slightly different from RL.
Henry VIII of England
.... And on 28 March 1541 after a difficult birth, Catherine Howard gave birth to Henry's second son, and the last of his children who was christened Henry and made into the Duke of York.
In honor of the birth Henry hosted elaborate celebrations that were written by contemporaries as being 'quite fine', however it was during these celebrations that rumors began to grow about Catherine's possible affairs with courtier Thomas Culpepper and her secretary Francis Dereham. However it wasn't until July that the King was informed, while he ignored the rumors as a slander, never the less the Queen was forced to withdraw from public life for a time and both men were dismissed with both of them suffering unsolved deaths a few weeks later.
It was during this time that the power of Catherine's uncle, Thomas Howard, the Duke of Norfolk reached new heights, especially as the last of the monastic lands were reverted to the crown and redistributed to the King's various supporters, most notably Thomas Howard.
The next major event to consume the King's time was his desire to wage war against France as part of his new alliance with Charles V and join the Italian Wars, it was decided that since Scotland had renewed the Auld Alliance that they needed to be removed as a threat.
The campaign lasted through most of 1542 and saw the majority of Scotland's Catholic nobility killed due to poor leadership. James himself was given a fatal wound after the Battle of Solway Moss as his wife bore him a set of twin girls, Mary and Margaret, the eldest of whom became Queen.
This led to the next stage of the 'Anglo-Scottish Wars', the Rough Wooing in which Henry VIII wished to wed his eldest son, Prince Edward to the infant Queen, however the girl's mother, Mary of Guise had been appointed Regent and refused, leading to further conflict. However things became more favorable for England after the mentally unstable James Hamilton, Earl of Arran (and third in line for the Scottish throne after Margaret) attempted to assassinate Mary of Guise but his gun misfired, destroying his hand. The shock of the event however convinced Mary that peace would be preferred and in 1543 she signed the Treaty of Greenwich in which a marriage pact between the infant Princess Margaret and Prince Henry was formed instead.
With peace in hand, Henry launched an invasion of France on the side of Emperor Charles in 1543 and his forces laid siege to Boulogne and Montreuil. While the King greatly desired to take the field himself, the two men he trusted most for the role of Regent (Norfolk and Charles Brandon, the Duke of Suffolk) were both in France and choosing either Archbishops Thomas Cramner (the head of the Protestant faction) or Stephen Gardiner (head of the Catholic faction) would have been too inflammatory. Disputes with Charles V however led to the alliance fracturing even while Boulogne fell. Henry was forced to make peace with France due to dwindling funds, and in the 1545 Treaty of Camp he was allowed to keep Boulogne.
Disheartened by this, Henry's health suffered a severe decline, however he managed to shock the Court in late November of that year by revealing his plans for the succession, in what many believed to be a fit of sentiment Henry added his estranged daughters, Mary and Elizabeth back into the succession, behind their two brothers. It was furthered declared that should the King die during his son's minority that a Regency Council of seven 'goodly gentlemen' of the realm should be formed (though he changed his mind several times on the men who would be it's members).
Despite his declining health, Henry managed to live two more years before dying at age 55 on 28 January 1547, his father's birthday.
He was succeeded by his son Prince Edward who became Edward VI, he was nine years old. His immediate heir was his brother, Prince Henry, Duke of York who was six.
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Henry VIII dismissed the accusations and Catherine was never charged with adultery, so officially Prince Henry is still his son and second in line behind Edward VI.
Unofficially however... You'll see.
Well, just a minor nitpick, duke of Cornwall was Edward's title. The kid will be duke of York. But otherwise, would be interested in seeing where this goes. Could be interesting once Edward kicks.
Not as far as law and English are concerned. Catherine is not charged with adultery, marriage is not annuled which means that whatever doubts there might be none of them have legal standing. Unlike Mary and Elizabeth.
Deleted member 5909
Some time ago, there was a thread regarding this same POD posted. I'm unable to post the link at the moment (currently on my iPhone without access to my laptop) but I'll include in quotation my own observations there below, as you may find it of interest:
With a younger brother, Edward may well be made healthier by playing with a fellow royal.
Playing rough and outside with his brother would be better, then inside with boys who did not want to upset their future king.
With Henry thinking about marrying off his two son, will he also think about marrying off his two daughters?
Glad to see Norfolk playing a higher roll, if it was not for his "adventurous" nieces in OTL, he could have made a brilliant politician in late Tudor England.
Playing rough and outside with his brother would be better, then inside with boys who did not want to upset their future king.
With Henry thinking about marrying off his two son, will he also think about marrying off his two daughters?
Glad to see Norfolk playing a higher roll, if it was not for his "adventurous" nieces in OTL, he could have made a brilliant politician in late Tudor England.
Edward VI of England
Henry VIII's successor was his nine year old son, Prince Edward who was born of his third wife, Jane Seymour. During the early years of his life Edward was brought up by a group of educated women (who were also responsible for the education of Lady Elizabeth Tudor) until the age of six when Henry decided to place Edward's care in that of his uncle, Edward Seymour, 1st Earl of Hertford who began giving him a marital education with his religious instruction being handled by Richard Cox, Bishop of Ely who harbored Reformist views.
Upon taking the throne as per his father's will a Regency Council of seven men was formed, however the men chosen were all part of the Catholic leaning clique that had formed around Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk and Stephen Gardiner, Bishop of Winchester. The council quickly voted to place virtually all power in the hands of Thomas Howard, naming him Lord-Protector of the realm.
The actual announcement of his father's death had been delayed by a day during which a number of reform minded members of the court, including his two uncles were arrested and sent to the Tower of London (most were later executed), with the King's person in hand, Thomas Howard was the effective ruler of England.
Very quickly those who hoped for a return to the Catholic Church, like Lady Mary Tudor were disappointed by a series of Edicts issued by Thomas Howard that while restoring many Catholic customs and rituals, never the less maintained the separation from Papal control.
However a stumbling block to all of this was the King himself, who having been instructed by his uncle's tutors in the Protestant faith often complained about the 'return of popery' to the English Church.
While Thomas Howard hired new tutors to oversee the King's education and cure him of his 'heresy', it had the opposite effect. The King often snuck away to attend Protestant services and publicly stated that upon his majority that 'God's true church will be restored by my hand'.
On the political front the Lord-Protector had more success, ransoming Boulogne back to France to stabilize England's finances. He also suppressed the Enclosure Rebellions of 1548 and 1549 over the enclosure of common grazing grounds. He also suppressed the Warwick Plot in which a number of Reformers led by John Dudley, 1st Earl of Warwick plotted to overthrow the Lord-Protector and seize power for themselves to install a Protestant program for the English Church. It was suspected both then and in the modern era that Edward had some knowledge of the plot, though what assistance he had given it (if any) is unknown.
On a matter of mutual agreement however both the Lord-Protector and Edward initiated a program of currency reform due to Henry VIII's habit of debasing the coinage for a quick profit, though the reforms weren't completed until after Edward's reign.
Edward's relationship with his siblings was complicated, while he had grown up with his sister Lady Elizabeth and his brother Prince Henry, he did love his eldest sister, Lady Mary dearly. However Mary's refusal to abandon Catholism and practicing of the faith in her private chapel was a wedge between them. While Elizabeth and Henry would sometimes join Edward in his Protestant services to humor him, Lady Elizabeth would usually attend the 'Anglican' services established by Thomas Howard. His brother would do that and also seen occasionally attending Catholic services with Lady Mary (though he never took Catholic Communion). Edward believed that he could sway Elizabeth to his side, but admitted that Mary was 'lost to the True Faith' and could never figure out what his brother believed at all.
Considerations for Edward's marriage to seal a foreign alliance were focused on Thomas Howard's desire for an Anglo-Spanish Alliance, however candidates for a bride were thin on the ground. It was suggested that Lady Mary be married to Charles V's son, Prince Philip but Howard vetoed it as simply too dangerous. Edward himself favored an internal marriage to shore up support in the nation, it was rumored that he wanted his childhood friend, Lady Jane Grey to be his wife but that the Lord-Protector didn't want the King to be married to a member of the Reformist faction.
The issue became moot on 7 February 1553 when Edward declared during a session with the Privy Council that he didn't feel well before fainting. He was quickly diagnosed with the most severe form of Smallpox possible, Black pox. One of the first victims of a nasty outbreak of the illness, the rest of the royal family and most of the court fled to the countryside while Edward was left in the care of a handful of retainers who had already had (weaker forms) of the disease, Edward died just six days later, a few month's shy of his 15th birthday.
A messenger was quickly sent to Oxford where the Royal Court had fled to inform them and on 13 February 1553, Edward's brother Prince Henry, Duke of York became Henry IX of England, his immediate heir was Lady Mary Tudor (as per their father's will).
He was just 12 year's old.
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Henry IX of England
Pt. 1
Henry XI was born the second and last son of Henry VIII by his fifth wife, Catherine Howard and named the Duke of York. During the earliest months of his life it was whispered that the Prince wasn't Henry's son but one of Catherine Howard's rumored lovers, courtier Thomas Culpepper or her secretary Francis Dereham (the latter was even hinted to have been precontracted to Catherine prior to her marriage to the King).
The King however rejected the whispers out of hand, though for a time Catherine was forced to withdraw from court and the two men were dismissed from court, and later died under mysterious circumstances in a tavern fire.
Henry left the education of his son in the hands of the same group of women that were educating Lady Elizabeth Tudor (and for a time his brother Edward VI). It was reported that while Prince Henry had a strong interest in history, he was an energetic child, often prone to losing focus and following whatever flight of fancy had caught his attention at any given moment.
At the age of six Henry's father died, leaving his nine year old brother as King and while his uncle, Thomas Howard, Duke of Norfolk secured the Regency and worked to establish a more 'Catholic' Church in England, it was discovered that Edward had been raised in the Reformist tradition by his overseer, his uncle Edward Seymour. Norfolk's attempts at 'educating' Edward in 'proper religion' had the opposite effect of their intention, instead making him a more ardent supporter of Protestantism, often sneaking away to attend illegal Protestant services.
As he grew older it was noted that sometimes Prince Henry would join his brother, but would also join Lady Mary Tudor in her Catholic services in her private chapel (though he never took communion), despite his uncle's attempts to dissuade him from either one. His own brother confessed, "I know not what my brother believes."
Due to this ambiguity, and England's refusal to rejoin the Catholic Church despite officially re-embracing many of it's practices, Mary of Guise the Regent of Scotland wished to renege on the Treaty of Greenwich which would have had her daughter, Princess Margaret Stewart marry the Prince. This however was thwarted by the growth of Protestantism in Scotland and her own failing health, Mary of Guise died on 8 January 1550 of what many suspected was poison, rendering the issue moot.
As per the treaty, under the reign of the new Regent, Archibald Campbell, 5th Earl of Argyll, Margaret would be sent to England to be raised in the English Court and meet her future husband a few months later, while they were married by proxy, Henry was 9, Margaret was 8.
It was just two years later that Henry's brother died of smallpox, making him Henry IX of England.
I don't know if I can buy this. Henry is going to be between the ages of 6 and 12 during Edward's reign, which is pretty young to be forming contrarian (?) religious views. I'd also think he'd have a considerably stronger bond with his brother (who is only four years older) than Mary, who was already an adult when he was born (and mostly stayed away from court during this time, IIRC). I would think that Henry would be pretty much on board with his brother's religious reforms.
Mary was something of a mother figure for Prince Henry (more so than his own mother who's fate will be revealed in Pt. 2), his siblings in general are something of a soft spot for him that will cause problems in the near future.