WI: Casimir III impregnates Alice/Adelaide of Hesse

kasumigenx

kasumigenx

What if Casimir III impregnates his second wife, Alice of Hesse with at least three children.

Casimir III(b) Adelaide(Alicja) of Hesse(b)
3b. Wladyslaw b. 1342
4b. Wojchiec b. 1348
5b. Alicja b. 1352
@Jan Olbracht @krieger
 
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Steno

Steno

kasumigenx said:
What if Casimir III impregnates his second wife, Alice of Hesse with at least three children.

Casimir III(b) Adelaide(Alicja) of Hesse(b)
3b. Wladyslaw b. 1342
4b. Wojchiec b. 1348
5b. Alicja b. 1352
@Jan Olbracht @krieger
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So we are unlikely to see a Polish-Hungarian or Polish-Lithuania union in TTL, at least not for another generation. Does Poland pursue an alliance with the Teutonic order against Lithuania ITTL, or can some concordat be reached with Lithuania without a marriage alliance?
 

Jan Olbracht

kasumigenx said:
What if Casimir III impregnates his second wife, Alice of Hesse with at least three children.

Casimir III(b) Adelaide(Alicja) of Hesse(b)
3b. Wladyslaw b. 1342
4b. Wojchiec b. 1348
5b. Alicja b. 1352
@Jan Olbracht @krieger
Click to expand...
Why Wojciech for second son? Piasts never used that name. I'd say younger son would be called Casimir (most likely) or Bolesław, Leszek, Przemysł (less likely).

What happens? Louis d'Anjou has little hope to inherit Polish throne nie, although he'd still support Poland against Lithuanian pagans in Red Ruthenia. Having sons, Casimir the Great may be unwilling to make promise of selling Red Ruthenia, or, at least, he'd try to vastly increase its price.
 
Steno

Steno

piratedude said:
You know usually these kinds of post aren't as blatant with their treatment of nobles as prized livestock to be bred
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???
The prompt is asking us to consider a King (who famously had multiple daughters and wives but no sons) having sons and how this could change the course of history. Kazimierz III’s lack of a male heir directly led to both the Polish-Hungarian and Polish-Lithuanian unions. Considering nobles “livestock to be bred” is certainly a harsh view but also not one inconsistent with history. Would it be demeaning to be used as a pawn in political machinations through marriage? Absolutely, but that’s par for the course for most of European history.
 
piratedude

piratedude

steno19 said:
The prompt is asking us to consider a King (who famously had multiple daughters and wives but no sons) having sons and how this could change the course of history.
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I understand that, but thread starting with a bare bones post thats just a list of hypothetical children doesn't seem like a good way to prompt discussion. Only the threads about alternate marriages that just endlessly compare pedigrees without going further are worse imo.

I mean no offense to OP but maybe a little exploration of what kind of childhood they might have or what their disposition is would be a bit more thought provoking?
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Jan Olbracht said:
Why Wojciech for second son? Piasts never used that name. I'd say younger son would be called Casimir (most likely) or Bolesław, Leszek, Przemysł (less likely).

What happens? Louis d'Anjou has little hope to inherit Polish throne nie, although he'd still support Poland against Lithuanian pagans in Red Ruthenia. Having sons, Casimir the Great may be unwilling to make promise of selling Red Ruthenia, or, at least, he'd try to vastly increase its price.
Click to expand...




I changed Wojchiech to Konrad
Casimir III(b) Adelaide(Alicja) of Hesse(b)
3b. Wladyslaw b. 1342 m. Hedwig of Sagan
4b. Konrad b. 1348
5b. Alice of Poland b. 1352 m. Edward the Black Prince(b)
 
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Kellan Sullivan

kasumigenx said:
5b. Alice of Poland b. 1352 m. Edward the Black Prince(b)
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So many questions: like what benefit does a Polish match give to England? Not like Emperor Karl IV is ACTIVELY getting involved in the 100YW. In fact, Kasimierz' marriage to Adelaide was as a Luxemburg proxy, which means that if there's any "ill will" between Kasik and Adele, its likely to see him siding WITH the Wittelsbachs not AGAINST them. And even if Kasik and Adele are happily wed (she being the mother of his heir and spare and all), what's to stop Kas from backing a Wittelsbach emperor anyway? Not saying said Wittelsbach will WIN , but IF they do, I could see England backing the Luxemburgs and the French backing the Wittelsbachs.

Also, why is Edward marrying a POLISH princess? Particularly one who is so much younger than he. Wouldn't one of Kasik's daughters by Aldona be a better option on the off chance that such a marriage is even remotely possible?
 

krieger

Banned
Wendell said:
Lithuania ends up Orthodox and possibly heavily Russified ITTL.
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It's a nice cliche (perhaps influenced by great TSK made by @Augenis) but no, Orthodoxization of Lithuania proper wasn't that easy. Of course, a lot of Lithuanian princes converted to Orthodoxy when ruling minor Ruthenian principalities, but they were usually stripped from their rights to succesion - all sons of Algirdas from his first marriage were banned from becoming great princes, and Jogaila didn't want to accept Orthodoxy and broke his treaty with Dimitr of Moscow for reasons. Also, when Gediminas tried to place Orthodox Jaunutis on the throne, Algirdas and Kęstutis gained a lot of following among Lithuanian nobility. Lithuanians saw Orthodoxy (apart from royalty) as a religion of weak, easily conquered men, so not suitable to spread in Lithuania proper. Lithuania would most probably stay pagan for a century longer, and then I don't know what.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Kellan Sullivan said:
So many questions: like what benefit does a Polish match give to England? Not like Emperor Karl IV is ACTIVELY getting involved in the 100YW. In fact, Kasimierz' marriage to Adelaide was as a Luxemburg proxy, which means that if there's any "ill will" between Kasik and Adele, its likely to see him siding WITH the Wittelsbachs not AGAINST them. And even if Kasik and Adele are happily wed (she being the mother of his heir and spare and all), what's to stop Kas from backing a Wittelsbach emperor anyway? Not saying said Wittelsbach will WIN , but IF they do, I could see England backing the Luxemburgs and the French backing the Wittelsbachs.

Also, why is Edward marrying a POLISH princess? Particularly one who is so much younger than he. Wouldn't one of Kasik's daughters by Aldona be a better option on the off chance that such a marriage is even remotely possible?
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Her IOTL niece did marry the Black Prince's son, I am thinking if a younger Aunt can do this feat as well..
 

Kellan Sullivan

kasumigenx said:
Her IOTL niece did marry the Black Prince's son, I am thinking if a younger Aunt can do this feat as well..
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Her niece was the emperor's daughter. And the marriage was unpopular in England because it brought ZERO benefits to England (IIRC didn't Richard II ACTUALLY have to PAY Wenzel a sum of money NOT unlike Henry VI and Marguerite d'Anjou). Why would Kasik's daughter fare ANY better.
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Jan Olbracht said:
Casimir's daughter (I'd name her Hedwig, Anne or Adelaide, not Alice) is going to marry closer to home, Pomerania perhaps (as wife of this guy:

Wartislaw VI, Duke of Pomerania - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
or his brother:
en.m.wikipedia.org

Bogislaw VI, Duke of Pomerania - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Best option for her would be HRE Charles IV (if for some reason her niece is not available), but no Black Prince.
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Yep, she is I think so...Alice is a form Adelaide, similar to Caroline and Charlotte.
 
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Wendell

krieger said:
It's a nice cliche (perhaps influenced by great TSK made by @Augenis) but no, Orthodoxization of Lithuania proper wasn't that easy. Of course, a lot of Lithuanian princes converted to Orthodoxy when ruling minor Ruthenian principalities, but they were usually stripped from their rights to succesion - all sons of Algirdas from his first marriage were banned from becoming great princes, and Jogaila didn't want to accept Orthodoxy and broke his treaty with Dimitr of Moscow for reasons. Also, when Gediminas tried to place Orthodox Jaunutis on the throne, Algirdas and Kęstutis gained a lot of following among Lithuanian nobility. Lithuanians saw Orthodoxy (apart from royalty) as a religion of weak, easily conquered men, so not suitable to spread in Lithuania proper. Lithuania would most probably stay pagan for a century longer, and then I don't know what.
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Jogalia is much, much weaker in this timeline with no shot at the Polish throne, nor likely with his OTL Hungarian marriage that could be butterflied away.
 

krieger

Banned
Wendell said:
Jogalia is much, much weaker in this timeline with no shot at the Polish throne, nor likely with his OTL Hungarian marriage that could be butterflied away.
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Yes, but it doesn't equate to him adopting Orthodoxy (and there was a tiny condition in treaty in Dimitri, that as soon as Jogaila will be baptized in Orthodoxy, he'd become Muscovite vassal). Most likely he'll just stay pagan, because adopting Christianity from Muscovy or TO without any savviness from their side (so at least paying lip service to Jogaila's equality to them) would mean that Vytautas would depose him immediately.
 

Wendell

krieger said:
Yes, but it doesn't equate to him adopting Orthodoxy (and there was a tiny condition in treaty in Dimitri, that as soon as Jogaila will be baptized in Orthodoxy, he'd become Muscovite vassal). Most likely he'll just stay pagan, because adopting Christianity from Muscovy or TO without any savviness from their side (so at least paying lip service to Jogaila's equality to them) would mean that Vytautas would depose him immediately.
Click to expand...
Doesn't staying pagan run the risk of a rival Christianizing and displacing him with external support?
 
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